Author Topic: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...  (Read 17897 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

zakk

  • Očigledan slučaj RASTROJSTVA!
  • 3
  • Posts: 10.892
    • IP Tardis
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16158374

LHC: Higgs boson 'may have been glimpsed'

The most coveted prize in particle physics - the Higgs boson - may have been glimpsed, say researchers reporting at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) in Geneva. The particle is purported to be the means by which everything in the Universe obtains its mass.

Scientists say that two experiments at the LHC see hints of the Higgs at the same mass, fuelling huge excitement.
But the LHC does not yet have enough data to claim a discovery.

Finding the Higgs would be one of the biggest scientific advances of the last 60 years. It is crucial for allowing us to make sense of the Universe, but has never been observed by experiments.

This basic building block of the Universe is a significant missing component of the Standard Model - the "instruction booklet" that describes how particles and forces interact.

Two separate experiments at the LHC - Atlas and CMS - have been conducting independent searches for the Higgs. Because the Standard Model does not predict an exact mass for the Higgs, physicists have to use particle accelerators like the LHC to systematically look for it across a broad search area.

At a seminar at Cern (the organisation that operates the LHC) on Tuesday, the heads of Atlas and CMS said they see "spikes" in their data at roughly the same mass: 124-125 gigaelectronvolts (GeV).

"The excess may be due to a fluctuation, but it could also be something more interesting. We cannot exclude anything at this stage," said Fabiola Gianotti, spokesperson for the Atlas experiment.

Guido Tonelli, spokesperson for the CMS experiment, said: "The excess is most compatible with a Standard Model Higgs in the vicinity of 124 GeV and below, but the statistical significance is not large enough to say anything conclusive.

"As of today, what we see is consistent either with a background fluctuation or with the presence of the boson."


'Exciting'

Prof Rolf-Dieter Heuer, director-general of Cern, told BBC News: "Such signals can come and go… Although there is correspondence between the two experiments, we need more solid numbers."

None of the spikes seen by the experiments is at much more than the "two sigma" level of certainty.

A level of "five sigma" is required to claim a discovery, meaning there is less than a one in a million chance the data spike is down to a statistical fluke.

Another complicating factor is that these tantalising hints consist only of a handful of events among the billions of particle collisions analysed at the LHC.

Professor Rolf-Dieter Heuer, director-general of Cern told BBC News: "We can be misled by small numbers, so we need more statistics," but added: "It is exciting."

If it exists, the Higgs is very short-lived, quickly decaying - or transforming - into more stable particles. There are several different ways this can happen, which provides scientists with different routes to search for the boson.

They looked at particular decay routes for the Higgs that produce only a handful of events, but have the advantage of having less background noise in the data. This background noise consists of random combinations of events, some of which can look like Higgs decays.

Other decay modes produce more events - which are better for statistical certainty - but also more background noise. Prof Heuer said physicists were "squeezed" between these two options.

Prof Stefan Soldner-Rembold, from the University of Manchester, called the quality of the LHC's results "exceptional", adding: "Within one year we will probably know whether the Higgs particle exists, but it is likely not going to be a Christmas present."

The simple fact that both Atlas and CMS seem to be seeing a data spike at the same mass has been enough to cause enormous excitement in the particle physics community.
Why shouldn't things be largely absurd, futile, and transitory? They are so, and we are so, and they and we go very well together.

Mica Milovanovic

  • 8
  • 3
  • *
  • Posts: 8.375
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #1 on: 13-12-2011, 16:58:45 »
Quote
The most coveted prize in particle physics - the Higgs boson - may have been glimpsed, say researchers reporting at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) in Geneva. The particle is purported to be the means by which everything in the Universe obtains its mass.

Ispostaviće se, kao i uvek, da su videli ghoula...
Mica

zakk

  • Očigledan slučaj RASTROJSTVA!
  • 3
  • Posts: 10.892
    • IP Tardis
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #2 on: 13-12-2011, 17:39:05 »
Kreteni sa b92:nauka objavili vest pod naslovom:

CERN detektovao Božiju česticu!

Why shouldn't things be largely absurd, futile, and transitory? They are so, and we are so, and they and we go very well together.

tomat

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 5.757
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded.

Irena Adler

  • 4
  • 2
  • Posts: 405
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #4 on: 26-04-2012, 09:08:24 »
For dummies (kao što sam ja):

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1489

tomat

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 5.757
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #5 on: 03-07-2012, 23:47:38 »
Fizičari iz CERN-a u sredu objavljuju nove rezultate

http://www.24sata.rs/vesti/svet/vest/fizicari-iz-cern-a-u-sredu-objavljuju-nove-rezultate/46036.phtml

Quote
Naučnici u Evropskoj organizaciji za nuklearna istraživanja (CERN) planiraju da u sredu objave nove podatke koji bi mogli da potvrde postojanje "Higsovog bozona", čestice koja stoji u središtu objašnjenja zašto materija ima masu.


Fizičari CERN-a kažu da su prikupili velike količine podatka koji pokazuju tragove "Higsovog bozona", mada ne navode da bi to moglo konačno da potvrdi njegovo postojanje.
 
Nalaženje te čestice bi dalo uvid zašto druge čestice imaju određenu masu i doprinelo razvoju fizike. Dva nezavisna tima fizičara, koji u CERN-u i Fermilabu u Čikagu tragaju za "Higsovim bozonom", i posle decenija rada i milijardi utrošenih dolara, i dalje su uzdržani i ne planiraju da koriste reč
"otkriće".
 
- Slažem se da bi svaki razuman posmatrač rekao: 'To izgleda kao
otkriće'  - rekao je britanski teoretski fizičar Džon Elis, profesor londonskog King Koledža, koji radi u CERN-u još od 1970-tih godina.
 
On je rekao da su fizičari došli do nečega što je saglasno s teorijom o postojanju "Higsovog bozona".
 
CERN-ov Veliki hadronski sudarač na švajcarsko-francuskoj granici radi na stvaranju visokoenergetskih sudara protona u cilju istraživanja tamne materije, antimaterije i stvaranja univerzuma u trenutku Velikog praska.
 
Prema objašnjenju škotskog fizičara Pitera Higsa i njegovih kolega iz 1960-tih godina, čestica poznata i kao "Božija čestica", trebalo bi da objasni kako su nastale subatomske čestice poput elektrona, protona i neutrona, i zbog čega imaju masu.
 
Oni su predložili model prema kojem su sve čestice posle Velikog praska bile bez mase. Kako se univerzum hladio i temperatura opala ispod kritične vrednosti, nevidljiva sila tada nazvana "Higsovo polje" je obrazovana s "Higsovim bozonom".
 
To polje se raširilo kosmosom i svaka čestica koja je bila u interakciji s njim dobila je masu preko "Higsovog bozona". Ova ideja dala je zadovoljavajuće rešenje i uklapa se u prihvaćene teorije, ali je problem što niko do sada nije opazio "Higsov bozon" u eksperimentu kako bi se teorija potvrdila.
 
Zaseban je problem što fizičari ne znanju kolika je masa "Higsovog bozona" što otežava njegovo otkrivanje.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded.

tomat

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 5.757
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #6 on: 03-07-2012, 23:49:10 »
Na korak od otkrića u CERN-u

http://www.24sata.rs/vesti/svet/vest/na-korak-od-otkrica-u-cern-u/46024.phtml

Quote
Odgovor na pitanje da li je konačno otkriven Higsov bozon - božja čestica, saznaćemo u sredu, kada će naučnici iz CERN-a (Evropskog centra za nuklearna istraživanja) u Švajcarskoj, objaviti rezultate.


NAUKA - Kako za 24 sata kažu srpski naučnici koji su deo CERN-a do tada neće moći da govore o istraživanjima. Za sada mediji spekulišu i nagađaju, kaže naš izvor, i dodaje da „izvestan napredak postoji”, a da li je čestica napokon „uhvaćena”, na videlo će izaći sutra pre podne.

Kako se očekuje, naučni timovi iz Evropske organizacije za nuklearna istraživanja (CERN), „objaviće da su 99,99 odsto sigurni” da je otkrivena Higsov bozon.

Među fizičarima koji su pozvani na konferenciju u Švajcarskoj navodno se nalazi i Piter Higs, počasni profesor fizike Univerziteta u Edinburgu, po kome je čestica nazvana.

Direkcija CERN-a očekuje od dva naučna tima koji tragaju za Higsovim bozonom da obezbede dokaze koji potvrđuju postojanje čestice sa sigurnošću od 99,99995 odsto - tzv. sigma pet nivo, neophodan da bi se objavilo otkriće.

“Pretpostavljam da je rezultat prilično pozitivan kad su nas pozvali na konferenciju”, kaže Tom Kibl (79), počasni profesor fizike Kraljevskog univerziteta u Londonu.

Smatra se da je Higsov bozon ključ za razumevanje svemira. Njegov zadatak je da subatomskim česticama daje masu. Bez te mase one bi zujale kosmosom brzinom svetlosti, nesposobne da se spajaju i formiraju atome, od kojih se sastoji čitav kosmos - od planeta do ljudi.

Hadronski kolajder (LHC), smešten u 30 kilometara dugom tunelu duboko ispod zemlje nedaleko od francusko-švajcarske granice, izaziva sudare protonskih snopova - subatomskih čestica - koji se kreću brzinom približnom brzini svetlosti, stvarajući uslove kakvi su postojali u deliću sekunde posle Velikog praska.

Prema teoriji fizičara, na svakih trilion sudara trebalo bi da nastane mali broj Higsovih bozona da bi se zatim brzo raspali. Njihovo raspadanje ostavilo bi trag koji bi se pokazao kao skok na grafovima koji prate kretanje čestica.

Međutim, iako je u LHC prouzrokovano 1.600 triliona sudara, manje od 300 puta pojavilo se nešto što bi moglo biti Higsov bozon.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded.

Father Jape

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 7.008
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #7 on: 03-07-2012, 23:56:47 »
Po prvi put potražih po kome je Higzov bozon nazvan. Evo ga čika:  :lol:

In Interview: Peter Higgs
Blijedi čovjek na tragu pervertita.
To je ta nezadrživa napaljenost mladosti.
Dušman u odsustvu Dušmana.

https://lingvistickebeleske.wordpress.com

Ygg

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 2.281
"I am the end of Chaos, and of Order, depending upon how you view me. I mark a division. Beyond me other rules apply."

Ygg

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 2.281
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #9 on: 04-07-2012, 11:11:58 »
http://www.svetnauke.org/11517-5-sigma-za-higsa-atlas

Nakon prezentacije CMS-u danas je u CERN-u i ATLAS kolaboracija prezentovala svoje rezultate na osnovu podataka iz 2011. i dela podataka iz 2012. godine. Dobijeni rezultati “slični” su onima koje je dobila i CMS kolaboracija.

Na osnovu analize istih, najčistijih, kanala kao i CMS rezultati koje je ATLAS dobio izgledaju ovako:



Odnosno prema rezultatima ATLAS kolaboracije Higsova čestica ima masu od 126,5 GeV sa pouzdanošću od 5 sigma ! ! ! tj. verovatnoća da ovaj rezultat tačan je 99.999942%.


 xcheers
"I am the end of Chaos, and of Order, depending upon how you view me. I mark a division. Beyond me other rules apply."

tomat

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 5.757
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #10 on: 16-12-2012, 22:45:08 »
Could the Large Hadron Collider team have discovered TWO Higgs Bosons?

The original data was released in July, and it showed that the Higgs Boson seems to delay into two photons slightly more often than predicted. Last month, further data was released on everything except the two photon findings - but now we have an update.

Instead of the predicted one peak in data, researchers have observed two different peaks at two statistically significant different numbers.

Cautioned by previous unusual findings that turned out to be errors, they have spent the last month trying to work out if this could be a mistake. So far, the numbers seem to be holding up.

Multiple Higgs Bosons are predicted by certain interpretations of the Standard Model of physics, but the two particles observed have incredibly similar masses, which is *not* predicted by any current theories.

Many physicists and experts are arguing that this turns out to be a statistical error or problem with the equipment - but if correct, this finding could signal something brand new in physics.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/15/two-higgs-bosons_n_2302897.html
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded.


scallop

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 26.800
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #12 on: 01-01-2013, 16:22:52 »
Nego šta!


Bolje je pitanje zbog čega utrošiše tolike pare.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Lord Kufer

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 5.102
    • Poems and Essays
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #13 on: 01-01-2013, 16:27:23 »
Zbog fiscal cliffa.
Ili zbog... gang rape?

scallop

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 26.800
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #14 on: 01-01-2013, 16:48:43 »
Moguće je da žele da saznaju hoće li moći sebe da poljube u guzicu kada na to dođe red.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Lord Kufer

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 5.102
    • Poems and Essays
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #15 on: 01-01-2013, 16:51:14 »
Ostao im samo tračak nade, pošto im je hard-on splasnuo  :evil:

Kimura

  • 4
  • 3
  • Posts: 3.385
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #16 on: 09-01-2013, 01:26:32 »
Može poslužiti za priču.

Meho Krljic

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 49.919
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #17 on: 20-02-2013, 08:43:28 »
Jebote, šta pišu ovi mediji:
 
 Higgs Boson Particle May Spell Doom For the Universe 
I sad se mi useremo od stra' a u stvari
 
Quote

BOSTON — A subatomic particle discovered last year that may be the long-sought Higgs boson might doom our universe to an unfortunate end, researchers say.
The mass of the particle, which was uncovered at the world's largest particle accelerator — the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) in Geneva — is a key ingredient in a calculation that portends the future of space and time.
"This calculation tells you that many tens of billions of years from now there'll be a catastrophe," Joseph Lykken, a theoretical physicist at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Ill., said Monday (Feb. 18) here at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
"It may be the universe we live in is inherently unstable, and at some point billions of years from now it's all going to get wiped out," added Lykken, a collaborator on one of the LHC's experiments. [Gallery: Search for the Higgs Boson]
The Higgs boson particle is a manifestation of an energy field pervading the universe called the Higgs field, which is thought to explain why particles have mass. After searching for decades for proof that this field and particle existed, physicists at the LHC announced in July 2012 that they'd discovered a new particle whose properties strongly suggest it is the Higgs boson.
To confirm the particle's identity for sure, more data are needed. But many scientists say they're betting it's the Higgs.
"This discovery to me was personally astounding," said I. Joseph Kroll, a University of Pennsylvania physicist who also works at the LHC. "To me, the Higgs was sort of, it might be there, it might not. The fact that it's there is really a tremendous accomplishment."
And finding the Higgs, if it's truly been found, not only confirms the theory about how particles get mass, but it allows scientists to make new calculations that weren't possible before the particle's properties were known.
For example, the mass of the new particle is about 126 billion electron volts, or about 126 times the mass of the proton. If that particle really is the Higgs, its mass turns out to be just about what's needed to make the universe fundamentally unstable, in a way that would cause it to end catastrophically in the far future.
That's because the Higgs field is thought to be everywhere, so it affects the vacuum of empty space-time in the universe.
"The mass of the Higgs is related to how stable the vacuum is," explained Christopher Hill, a theoretical physicist at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory. "It's right along the critical line. That could either be a cosmic coincidence, or it could be that there's some physics that's causing that. That's something new, which we didn't know before."
Strikingly, if the Higgs mass were just a few percent different, the universe wouldn't be doomed, the scientists said.
But even if the universe is in for an unfortunate end, there is at least one reason for consolation.
"You won't actually see it, because it will come at you at the speed of light," Lykken said. "So in that sense don't worry."
 

Melkor

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 5.540
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #18 on: 13-03-2013, 03:11:23 »
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23265-mystery-boson-earns-higgs-status-thanks-to-w-particle.html

Quote
Say hello to Higgs. New data confirms that the unsatisfyingly named "Higgs-like particle" announced at CERN last year really is a Higgs boson.
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

zakk

  • Očigledan slučaj RASTROJSTVA!
  • 3
  • Posts: 10.892
    • IP Tardis
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #19 on: 13-03-2013, 11:58:01 »
 xcheers
Why shouldn't things be largely absurd, futile, and transitory? They are so, and we are so, and they and we go very well together.

Meho Krljic

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 49.919
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #20 on: 12-08-2013, 12:35:46 »
Savremena fizika je ko neki DC-jev strip: tamna materija, tamna energija, širenje kosmosa:

Physicists propose Higgs boson 'portal' as the source of this elusive entity
Quote
One of the biggest mysteries in contemporary particle physics and cosmology is why dark energy, which is observed to dominate energy density of the universe, has a remarkably small (but not zero) value. This value is so small, it is perhaps 120 orders of magnitude less than would be expected based on fundamental physics.


Resolving this problem, often called the cosmological constant problem, has so far eluded theorists.

Now, two physicists – Lawrence Krauss of Arizona State University and James Dent of University of Louisiana-Lafayette – suggest that the recently discovered Higgs boson could provide a possible "portal" to physics that could help explain some of the attributes of the enigmatic dark energy and help resolve the cosmological constant problem.

In their paper, "Higgs Seesaw Mechanism as a Source for Dark Energy," Krauss and Dent explore how a possible small coupling between the Higgs particle, and possible new particles likely to be associated with what is conventionally called the Grand Unified Scale – a scale perhaps 16 orders of magnitude smaller than the size of a proton at which the three known non-gravitational forces in nature might converge into a single theory – could result in the existence of another background field in nature in addition to the Higgs field, which would contribute an energy density to empty space of precisely the correct scale to correspond to the observed energy density.

The paper is published on line today (Aug. 9), in Physical Review Letters.

Current observations of the universe show it is expanding at an accelerated rate. But this acceleration cannot be accounted for on the basis of matter alone. Putting energy in empty space produces a repulsive gravitational force opposing the attractive force produced by matter, including the dark matter that is inferred to dominate the mass of essentially all galaxies, but which doesn't interact directly with light and therefore can only be estimated by its gravitational influence.


Because of this phenomenon and because of what is observed in the universe, it is thought that such 'dark energy' contributes up to 70 percent of the total energy density in the universe, while observable matter contributes only 2 to 5 percent, with the remaining 25 percent or so coming from dark matter.

The source of this dark energy and the reason its magnitude matches the inferred magnitude of the energy in empty space currently is not understood, making it one of the leading outstanding problems in particle physics today.

"Our paper makes progress in one aspect of this problem," said Krauss, a Foundation Professor in Arizona State University's School of Earth and Space Exploration and in Physics, and the director of the Origins Project at ASU. "Now that the Higgs boson has been discovered, it provides a possible 'portal' to physics at much higher energy scales through very small possible mixings and couplings to new scalar fields which may operate at these scales."

"We demonstrate that the simplest small mixing, related to the ratios of the scale at which electroweak physics operates, and a possible Grand Unified Scale, produces a possible contribution to the vacuum energy today of precisely the correct order of magnitude to account for the observed dark energy," Krauss explained. "Our paper demonstrates that a very small energy scale can at least be naturally generated within the context of a very simple extension of the standard model of particle physics."

While a possible advance in understanding the origin of dark energy, Krauss said the construct is only one step in the direction of understanding its mysteries.

"The deeper problem of why the known physics of the standard model does not contribute a much larger energy to empty space is still not resolved," he said.

One of the biggest mysteries in contemporary particle physics and cosmology is why dark energy, which is observed to dominate energy density of the universe, has a remarkably small (but not zero) value. This value is so small, it is perhaps 120 orders of magnitude less than would be expected based on fundamental physics.

 Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-08-physicists-higgs-boson-portal-source.html#jCp


Meho Krljic

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 49.919
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #22 on: 27-06-2014, 08:59:28 »
I eto ti ga sad:


The Higgs Boson Should Have Crushed the Universe

Quote
It’s funny when two seemingly distant theories conspire to destroy the universe.
This may seem a little far fetched, but if our understanding of the physics behind the recently-discovered Higgs boson (or, more specifically, the Higgs field — the ubiquitous field that endows all stuff with mass) is correct, our universe shouldn’t exist. That is, however, if another cosmological hypothesis is real, a hypothesis that is currently undergoing intense scrutiny in light of the BICEP2 results.
NEWS: LHC Uncovers New Higgs Boson Decay Mechanism
You may have heard about the controversy surrounding a certain telescope located near the South Pole. The BICEP2 telescope was built with one purpose in mind: to detect a specific type of polarized light being emitted by cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation. In short, BICEP2 announced (perhaps prematurely) that they had detected this B-mode polarization, indicating the presence of gravitational waves. For these waves to be embedded in the CMB, one key hypothesis of the origin of the universe may be valid.
The hypothesis is called “cosmological inflation” and this model helps cosmologists explain many tricky questions about how our universe was formed.
But according to a group of British cosmologists, inflation really throws a wrench (a.k.a. “a spanner”) into the Cosmic engine — if the physics behind the recently discovered Higgs boson are solid, the rapid inflationary period immediately after the Big Bang nearly 14 billion years ago would have thrown our early universe into chaos.
In fact, things would have gotten so out of hand within the first second of our universe’s creation that we shouldn’t even be here — the universe would have collapsed — known, unsurprisingly, as the “Big Crunch” — into nothing even before matter could condense out of the Big Bang’s primordial mess of energy.
ANALYSIS: Higgs Boson Discovery = Cosmic Doomsday?
In research presented today (Tuesday) at the Royal Astronomical Society’s National Astronomy Meeting in Portsmouth, UK, Malcolm Fairbairn and Robert Hogan of King’s College London (KCL) discussed the implications of recent discoveries in particle physics and the origins of our universe. Their conclusions will likely cause some unrest.
Since the discovery of a Higgs-like boson by Large Hadron Collider (LHC) physicists in 2012, further studies and data analysis has proven that this particular boson really is the Higgs boson — a subatomic particle that mediates the Higgs field. The Higgs field is believed to fill the entire known universe and endows all matter with mass. Since its discovery, physicists have been getting up-close and personal with the Higgs and experimental analyses has not only proven its existence, scientists are also becoming very familiar with the boson’s (and, by extension, the field it exchanges) properties.
But the problem with the Higgs field is that, if given enough energy, it has the power to reverse cosmic expansion and create a Big Crunch.
PHOTOS: When the World Went Higgs Boson Crazy
The mathematics to arise from accepted Higgs field theory suggests the universe is currently sitting comfortably in a Higgs field energy “valley.” To get out of this valley and up the adjacent “hill” (as shown in the energy diagram, right), huge quantities of energy would need to be unleashed inside the field. But, if there were enough energy to push the universe over the hill and into the deeper energy valley next door, the universe would simply, and catastrophically, collapse.
                  Robert Hogan, Kings College London    This is where the BICEP2 results come in. If their observations are real and gravitational waves in the CMB prove cosmological inflation, the Higgs field has already been kicked by too much energy, pushing the Higgs field over the energy hill and deep into the neighboring valley’s precipice! For any wannabe universe, this is very bad news — the newborn universe would appear as a Big Bang, the Higgs field would become overloaded with an energetic inflationary period, and the whole lot would vanish in a blink of an eye.
“This is an unacceptable prediction of the theory because if this had happened we wouldn’t be around to discuss it,” said Hogan.
ANALYSIS: Another Glimpse of ‘New Physics’ at the LHC?
This is a fascinating insight as to how studies of the quantum world can have impacts on a cosmological scale and the outcome of this research could be another kick in the teeth for the BICEP2 findings. But there is another exciting implication if the BICEP2 observations are proven to be correct and provides much-needed evidence for inflation.
“If BICEP2 is shown to be correct, it tells us that there has to be interesting new particle physics beyond the standard model,” added Hogan.
Exotic, or “new,” physics is currently being hunted down by high-energy physicists at the LHC and other institutions around the world to help explain some of the biggest conundrums in science. For example, physicists are trying to understand how gravity ‘fits’ with the Standard Model (because, right now, it doesn’t), what dark matter is and why the universe is more matter than antimatter. Perhaps there are supersummetric particles that exist at higher energies than we can currently observe, meddling with our known quantum world in very subtle ways.
NEWS: BICEP2 Big Bang ‘Discovery’ Team Urges Caution
Many avenues of “new physics” studies have been closed by the Standard Model that continues to be a reliable “recipe book” for particle physics, but some odd glimpses give physicists hope that our universe is hiding physics that we cannot fully grasp, yet.
So, if BICEP2′s observations are real and Higgs boson theory continues to strengthen, perhaps theorists will be buoyed-up in the knowledge that something else — something exotic — prevented cosmological inflation from collapsing the universe back down to a dot. Might there be another mechanism that counteracts the Higgs field’s universe-killing potential?
For now, this remains an open question, but fortunately for us, we’re here asking these big questions, so something isn’t quite adding up.
Publication: Electroweak Vacuum Stability in Light of BICEP2, Malcolm Fairbairn and Robert Hogan, Phys. Rev. Lett. 112, 201801, 2014.
Source: Royal Astronomical Society
 

scallop

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 26.800
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #23 on: 27-06-2014, 09:11:43 »
Ako si pročitao da nam objasniš?
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #24 on: 27-06-2014, 10:19:35 »
čitav problem je nastao kada su fizičari prestali da čitaju filozofiju

mac

  • 3
  • Posts: 10.302
    • http://www.facebook.com/mihajlo.cvetanovic
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #25 on: 27-06-2014, 12:02:26 »
Ako može da se izmeri onda nije filozofija nego fizika. Ako ne može da se izmeri onda nije od značaja za fiziku.

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #26 on: 27-06-2014, 12:28:52 »
Ako ne može da se izmeri onda nije od značaja za fiziku.


koliko ja shvatam, a moguće je da malo shvatam, Higsov bozon je ''filozofski'' koncipiran prije 40 godina, a izmjeren 2012?

mac

  • 3
  • Posts: 10.302
    • http://www.facebook.com/mihajlo.cvetanovic
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #27 on: 27-06-2014, 12:33:49 »
Da, s naglaskom na "izmeren". Ili da preformulišem svoj iskaz: ako ga nije moguće izmeriti (niti će to ikada biti moguće) onda nije od značaja za fiziku.

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #28 on: 27-06-2014, 12:37:21 »
s tim što su milijarde uložili u neku mašineriju u Švici ili đe već, s vjerom ili filozofskim stavom da će nešto izmjeriti

a milijarde su uložene prije bilo kakvog čvrstog fizičkog dokaza da to i postoji

ili su bar tako predstavljali stvar u medijima, što se naravno sasvim poklapa sa Kunovom pričom kako fizika suštinski funkcioniše

gomila filozofskih uvjerenja, specifična estetika, malo diskursa, pa tek onda mjerenje

scallop

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 26.800
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #29 on: 27-06-2014, 12:56:05 »
Za razliku od tvoje nauke, bar pokušavaju da izmere. Velika ulaganja nisu uvek sa ciljem nekih konkretnih merenja. Malo je teže objasniti, jer i ulaganja u Curiosity izgledaju benava, ali se rezultati u velikoj meri ugrađuju u niz drugih tehničkih rešenja i obilno vrate pare. Čitava svetska privreda u ovom trenutku leži na nekim istraživanjima koja su se činila neperspektivnim i džabalukom kad su započeta. Nije za ne primetiti da je većina istraživačkih grantova u SAD vojnog porekla.


Ženske sa Jeleninog đuskanja svakog petka idu da se razgale na zajednički ručak, pa pripovedaju koještarije, na primer, šta neka od njih nikada nije rekla u njihovom društvu. Došao red na Jelenu, a ona, šta će, rekla da je imala upit od NASA-e kako da povećaju bezbednost astronauta od svemirskog zračenja povećanjem prisustva selena u krvi. (sic!) A ona se tada bavila replikacijom DNK.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

mac

  • 3
  • Posts: 10.302
    • http://www.facebook.com/mihajlo.cvetanovic
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #30 on: 27-06-2014, 12:58:45 »
Milijarde su uložene ne samo zbog Higsovog bozona, nego i zbog mnoštva drugih eksperimenata. Nije Higs jedina frka u fizici. Istovremeno, milijarde su uložene upravo da bi se pronašao čvrst fizički dokaz. Bez eksperimenta i merenja sve što imaš je teorija. Sa eksperimentom i merenjem od teorije dobijaš otkriće. Teorije su lepe, ali bez fizičke potvrde Nobela nećeš omirisati.

Mogu ljudi da filozofiraju i teoretišu koliko hoće, ali ako teorija ni na papiru nije u skladu sa ostatkom naučnog saznanja onda ni od koga nećeš dobiti tu milijardu da bi teoriju potvrdio merenjem.

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #31 on: 27-06-2014, 13:04:12 »
pa ultimativni socijalni eksperiment i ne bi koštao baš milijarde, potrebno je samo tridesetak djece ostaviti na pustom ostvru pa da vidimo šta bi se desilo poslije par decenija

samo što tu očigledno ima nekih drugih problema koje nemaju veze sa finansijama, iako bi realno riješilo problem čitavog čovječanstva pitanje je da li vrijedi sprovesti takav eksperiment

a od KOGA ćeš dobiti milijardu i zašto je to u njegovom interesu je posebna priča

scallop

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 26.800
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #32 on: 27-06-2014, 13:08:02 »
Sad mi je jasno zašto je Bata Živojinović bio meni statista, a ne ja njemu. Tebi je džaba objašnjavati.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 49.919
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #33 on: 27-06-2014, 13:15:14 »
Ako si pročitao da nam objasniš?

Ja da malko uletim usred vaše svađe pa da ponudim dajdžest za koji sam ovde upitan. Dakle, ugrubo, ovde se radi o sukobu dva matematička modela. Jedan je ono kako smatramo da Higsov bozon i polje funkcionišu i kakve to veze ima sa prostiranjem gravitacione sile, a drugi je "kosmička inflacija", odnosno model kojim se opisuje način na koji se prostor zajedno sa materijom širio nakon velikog praska. Ovaj drugi model se potvrđuje određenim merenjima pozadinske mikrotalasne radijacije koja daju određene rezultate koji opet ukazuju na određene zakonitosti u pogledu ponašanja prostora posle velikog praska, ali ovo je u matematičkom neskladu sa tim kako trenutno vidimo prirodu Higsovog polja, odnosno, ako je matematika koja opisuje Higsovo polje takva kakvom je smatramo a istovremeno je i matematika kosmičke inflacije takva kakvom je smatramo, univerzum je trebalo posle velikog praska da maltene odmah kolabira natrag u nekakav singularitet.

Ali nije. Što znači da najmanje jedan od ova dva matematička modela nismo do kraja sagledali i/ ili nemamo sve podatke potrebne da donesemo prave zaključke o njemu.

Što je standardna naučna situacija: imaš teoriju koju rezultati podržavaju ali se onda pojavi nova teorija koju takođe podržavaju njeni rezultati ali su teorije suprotstavljene pa onda mora da se vidi šta je propušteno.

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #34 on: 27-06-2014, 13:32:30 »
scallope, ja mislim da ti nikad u životu nešto na Sagiti nisi objasnio, ali si sigurno trista puta napisao da je ''džaba objašnjavati''. AKo te mrzi nemoj da učestvuješ, ali ovako prosto ispadaš bot


lijepo se vidi i iz ovoga što je Meho napisao, barata se matematičkim modelima a ne samo konkretnim mjerenjima, dakle ima dosta apstraktnog mišljenja al kao hajde da se foliramo da je fizika totalno empirijska nauka, kad očigledno nije

scallop

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 26.800
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #35 on: 27-06-2014, 13:57:12 »
Dokle god ti Meho bude tumačio nauku i tehniku, trebalo bi da budeš zabrinut za svoje poimanje bilo čega. On je samo radoznao. Mac ti je već nešto drugo, ali on ima previše poverenja u nauku. Čim pomeneš da je fizika empirijska nauka već si u bedaku. Erozija nauke počinje od matematike, a završava sa tvojom naukom, koja god bila. Isto tako, empirija se povećava i dok stigne do onoga čime se ti baviš, postaje tupo nagađanje. Naravno, na mojoj strani će biti oni koji su se ikada bavili naučnim promišljanjem i eksperimentalnim istraživanjima, a na tvojoj oni drugi. To je tako i tu ti nikakvi botovi neće pomoći. Ustvari i za BOtove sam ja ekspert, a ne niko drugi. xfrog
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #36 on: 27-06-2014, 14:07:17 »
pa kad tako lupiš da u društvenim naukama nema istraživanja i da su sve nagađanja, čovjek se zapita da nisi možda i SNS bot

bar fizika, istorijski gledno, treba da se pokrije ušima zbog raznoraznih nagađanja u posljednje 2-3 hiljade godina

prosto je nevjerovatno da je Platon griješio u društvenonaučnom smislu maltene u promilima, dok je fizika lupetala i tada i u vrijeme Galileja, i prije sto godina, al kao sad ne lupeta :)

to je svakako vrlo nerazumna pretpostavka

ali nećemo sad i o tome, poenta je bila da fizika ima filozofsku neempirijsku podlogu, kao i svaka nauka

mac

  • 3
  • Posts: 10.302
    • http://www.facebook.com/mihajlo.cvetanovic
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #37 on: 27-06-2014, 14:31:46 »
Ne može grana nauke (neživ entitet) da se pokrije ušima kad, em što nije živ, em što nema ni uši ni čime da ih pokriva. Mogu samo ljudi koji su nešto grešili. Tvoja izjava da je Platon ovako a fizičari onako je do te mere proizvoljna da se ja sad pitam nije li u pitanju nekakvo trolovanje. Drži(mo) se teme.

Filozofiranje nije isto što i teoretisanje. Filozof ima tu slobodu da razvija misao čak i ako tu misao nikako nije moguće proveriti u praksi. Teoretski fizičar nema tu slobodu. Ako teoriju nikako nije moguće potvrditi u praksi onda je teorija skoro pa bezvredna.

-_-

  • 3
  • Posts: 852
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #38 on: 27-06-2014, 14:35:32 »
Velika ulaganja nisu uvek sa ciljem nekih konkretnih merenja.

To jeste. U pitanju je podela istrazivanja na fundamentalna, primenjena i razvojna,
pa se od fundamentalnih ne moze ocekivati da daju egzaknte/merljive rezultate.
Ali bez fundamentalnih, ne moze biti ni ovih drugih.

Malo je teže objasniti, jer i ulaganja u Curiosity izgledaju benava,
ali se rezultati u velikoj meri ugrađuju u niz drugih tehničkih rešenja i obilno vrate pare.

Cak i da ne vrate pare, ne znaci da ne bi trebalo da postoje.
A najcesce vrate - napretkom u razvoju nekih drugih, cesto neplaniranih rezultata:



Sa eksperimentom i merenjem od teorije dobijaš otkriće.

Preciznosti radi, dobijes njegovu ekperimentalnu potvrdu.
Teorija moze biti tacna i bez eksperimanta, samo ne mozemo biti sigurni koliko je tacna.
Npr. ako je jedina koja postoji, smatrace se tacnom, dok eksperimet ne pokaze suprotno.

Teorije su lepe, ali bez fizičke potvrde Nobela nećeš omirisati.

Da. Mrzi me sad da guglujem, ali mi se cini da Ajnstajn nije dobio Nobela za teoriju relativnosti,
vec za fotoelektricni efekat (sto je bio rezultat sprovodjenja eksperimenta).

Mac ti je već nešto drugo, ali on ima previše poverenja u nauku.

Ovo si rekao kao da je to nesto lose  xfrog

bar fizika, istorijski gledno, treba da se pokrije ušima zbog raznoraznih nagađanja u posljednje 2-3 hiljade godina

Kakva fizika od pre 2-3 hiljade godina?!?
Ja njen pocetak vezujem za Njutna.

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #39 on: 27-06-2014, 14:59:47 »
naravno da je stara bar 2500 hiljade godina, mada je tek od renesanse stvarno živnula. A čak i od tada ima dovoljan broj zatupastih momenata. No, odakle to sad da ti hvališ jednu državnu agenciju kao što je NASA?



Filozofiranje nije isto što i teoretisanje. Filozof ima tu slobodu da razvija misao čak i ako tu misao nikako nije moguće proveriti u praksi. Teoretski fizičar nema tu slobodu. Ako teoriju nikako nije moguće potvrditi u praksi onda je teorija skoro pa bezvredna.

''Univerzum je beskonačan'' je teza koju je moguće potvrditi u praksi?

možda danas naučim da fizika ne barata ama baš nikakvim aksiomima



inače, ne znam o kakvom trolovanju govoriš, moja paralela sa Platonom pokazuje da scallopovo neskromno postavljanje fizike na pijedestal nauke zvuči smiješno, budući da je fizika vjerovatno na vrhu prema ogromnim greškama koje je počinila u svom razvoju, što bi rekao scallop ''tupom ngađanju'', što naravno nije rezultiralo nekom manje godlike pozicijom istraživača u toj oblasti

scallop

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 26.800
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #40 on: 27-06-2014, 15:08:23 »

Mac ti je već nešto drugo, ali on ima previše poverenja u nauku.

Ovo si rekao kao da je to nesto lose  xfrog



Naravno. Koren svake nauke je u sumnji. To će vam reći svako ko se ozbiljno bavio naučnom misli. Kad se dovoljno dugo budete bavili time shvatićete. I Platon je lupetao koješta, pa se Bata kune u njega. Kad god zariba, on za Platona. Ne sporim ja da ste vi mladi pametni, ali ta pamet mora malo da se osloni i na prethodnike. Toliko da se ne zaglibite u nefunkcionalne negacije. Recimo da nisam pisac i da sam skoro trideset godina proveo u naučnom istraživanju. Da li je realno moguće da o istraživanjima uopšte znam više od bilo kog ko se mota po ovom forumu? Tu je Lilit i - kraj. U normalnim društvenim uslovima deca sednu i slušaju. Kod nas, ako se derete glasnije onda ste i pametniji. To neće ići dugoročno, pa kako vam drago.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 49.919
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #41 on: 27-06-2014, 15:10:56 »
Ni ja ne znam gde je ovde ispala kontroverza  :lol: :lol: Nauka (bar ozbiljna) zna da je utemeljena na aksiomatskoj paradigmi i poverenju u nju. I kada se desi da praksa aksiom opovrgne, menja se paradigma (u fizici bi uvođenje kvantne teorije bio očigledan primer).

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #42 on: 27-06-2014, 15:20:26 »
Nauka (bar ozbiljna) zna da je utemeljena na aksiomatskoj paradigmi i poverenju u nju.

a  mac reče: ''Ako može da se izmeri onda nije filozofija nego fizika. Ako ne može da se izmeri onda nije od značaja za fiziku.''

i onda nešto i scallop upade, a ja napisao, bar sam do sada mislio, bezazelnu istinu da je problem fizike što ne čita filozofiju

uostalom, to je problm i politikologije koja se davi u statistici, ali to nije bila tema

Meho Krljic

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 49.919
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #43 on: 27-06-2014, 15:26:23 »
Dobro, mac to komentariše sa možda odveć inženjerskog gledišta ali svakako da nauka ne može da bude sastavljena SAMO od egzaktnih podataka i SAMO od nedokazivih hipoteza i nemerljivih pojmova. Ali sadrži i jedno i drugo. Nauka je, valjda, disciplina & postupak kojim se od hipoteze dolazi do nekakve, pragmatične istine. Koja ne mora da bude ultimativna, naravno.

scallop

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 26.800
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #44 on: 27-06-2014, 15:27:25 »
Mda, Platon, bla, bla, bla.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

mac

  • 3
  • Posts: 10.302
    • http://www.facebook.com/mihajlo.cvetanovic
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #45 on: 27-06-2014, 15:33:46 »
Problem je što kad se menja paradigma za Batu je to priznanje da su naučnici prethodno debelo grešili, a i velike su šanse da ni sad nisu uboli konačnu istinu™. Ali to je bez veze. Samo budale nikad ne menjaju mišljenje.

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #46 on: 27-06-2014, 15:42:07 »
i na Platonovoj akademiji se predavala fizika, pa ti vidi

ovo što je Meho napisao je totalno precizno objašnjenje na koje sam gore ukazao

i dalje ne vidim zašto je scallop uopšte morao da reaguje, ali valjda on zna

to što u gotovo svakoj nauci danas uopšte ne obraćaju pažnju na osnovne postulate i jeste današnji problem, eno Boris misli da je ekonomija nauka o kompeticiji i alokaciji resursa


Problem je što kad se menja paradigma za Batu je to priznanje da su naučnici prethodno debelo grešili, a i velike su šanse da ni sad nisu uboli konačnu istinu™. Ali to je bez veze. Samo budale nikad ne menjaju mišljenje.


pa ja čak mogu i da se složim s tobom, ali ti ne možeš sa sopstvenim dvojnikom s početka današnje priče


o tome kada je i kako politikologija mijenjala mišljenje možda nekom drugom prilikom

Meho Krljic

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 49.919
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #47 on: 27-06-2014, 15:49:34 »
Da se razumemo, pošto je nauka neizbežno uvezana sa drugim stvarima - industrijom, politikom itd. - ponekad je teško ne reagovati burno kad se menjaju neke paradigme za koje vezujemo vrlo pragmatične efekte u svojim životima. Tipa, kako je heroin pre stotinak godina bio sastojak sirupa koji su se davali nemirnoj deci a danas je satanizovan, ili tipa kako menjamo mišljenje o genetski modifikovanoj hrani itd. Pa moramo razumeti i burne reakcije.

Ali naravo da nauka, kad ima dobar dan, uspeva da se distancira od dnevnopolitičke upotrebe i kratkoročnih interesa kapitala i da kaže da, iako traži ultimativnu istinu, nikada neće biti toliko gorda da smatra da ju je našla.

Albedo 0

  • Guest
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #48 on: 27-06-2014, 15:53:56 »
ne znam zašto pokušavaš da smiruješ situaciju, ona po meni nije burna, bar mi tako ne djeluje. Ako mac misli da sam ga uvrijedio nečim izvinjavam se, mene on nije, sve je to u žaru borbe, Suarez stajl, podržavam

Meho Krljic

  • 5
  • 3
  • Posts: 49.919
Re: Higsov bozon i dalje nepotvrđen al iima indicija...
« Reply #49 on: 27-06-2014, 16:02:52 »
Pa, da bismo pričali o zabavnijim stvarima kao što je pitanje šta je pogrešno - teorija Higsovog polja ili teorija kosmičke inflacije - umesto da prežvakavamo priču o nauci i njenim temeljima u verovanju koju smo već više puta ovde prežvakali i složili se da bez vere nema nauke.  :lol: Ali da i bez peer reviewa isto nema nauke.  :lol: :lol: