Author Topic: Lavkraft  (Read 121330 times)

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Джон Рейнольдс

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #250 on: 29-07-2013, 21:38:02 »
Превод је слаб, не препоручујем ово издање због причице или две које нема у "Некрономикону".
America can't protect you, Allah can't protect you… And the KGB is everywhere.

#Τζούτσε

Alexdelarge

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #251 on: 30-07-2013, 17:35:51 »
poslušao sam tvoj savet zaobišao sam reanimatora, a pazario sam the horror in the museum, collected stories volume two.
moj se postupak čitanja sastoji u visokoobdarenom prelistavanju.

entelehija

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #252 on: 19-11-2013, 23:38:04 »

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #253 on: 20-11-2013, 01:19:28 »
nisam čito.
deluje zanimljivo.

o lavkraftovoj misli - tj njenim filozofskim i sociološkim aspektima - čitao sam džošijevu DECLINE OF THE WEST, koja je, naravno, odlična.

entelehija

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #254 on: 20-11-2013, 16:00:33 »
Sadržaj je primamljiv. Vjerovatno ću kupiti i dati se u čitanje...

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #255 on: 20-11-2013, 16:24:04 »
koliko vidim, autor je anonimus, a spekulativni realizam je nju ejdž sranje

entelehija

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #256 on: 20-11-2013, 17:44:31 »
... spekulativni realizam je nju ejdž sranje

Ne može biti dosadniji od transcedentalnog idealizma, u svakom slučaju. :)

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #257 on: 20-11-2013, 18:10:26 »
možda, ali odnos t-idealizma i s-idealizma ti dođe kao odnos folka i turbo-folka. Turbo-folk je svakako zanimljiviji

entelehija

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #258 on: 20-11-2013, 18:19:23 »
Ja sam uvijek mislio da je Žižek jedini filozofski turbo-folk, i to ako se idealizam uzme kao folk.
Ne volim da zauzimam stranu ili ulazim u detalje, ali realizam, pa i ako bi bio spekulativan, uvijek stavljam isped idealizma.
A new-age ili old-school mi nisu dobre odrednice, u stvari radi se o etiketama, za dobro štivo u bilo kojoj oblasti.

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #259 on: 20-11-2013, 19:09:48 »
niko ti ne brani da bacaš pare na ono gore, samo napred :)

ne znam zašto misliš da etiketiram, spekulativni realizam je novokomponovana filozofija, dakle imam sestrića starijeg od te struje, ako misliš da filozofija nečemu vrijedi u posljednjih 30 godina a kamoli 5-6 onda samo izvoli, ali nije to medicina pa da napreduje svake godine.

Čak ni Žižek nije toliko dobar a ne neki anonimusi koji nisu prošli ni test vremena.


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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #261 on: 27-11-2013, 01:51:48 »
i, jesi li zadovoljan?

entelehija

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #262 on: 27-11-2013, 01:58:49 »
Kad budem iščitao dovoljno, onda ću da sudim.
Svakako bi trebalo dobaviti Uelbekovu knjigu o Lavkraftu...

Hrvatsko izdanje nije toliko skupo kao što hrvatska izdanja znaju da budu.

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #263 on: 27-11-2013, 02:18:41 »
sr je od početka promašena stvar

prvo, jer nije tačno da je filozofija prije sr subjektivistička - čak i Kant je ostavio pitanje univezuma otvorenim, i ako mene neko pita, Lavkraftovi likovi su bliži Kantu nego sr. Analitični su, individualci su, organizovano istražuju, i jedina je razlika što tamo gdje Kant staje jer nema odgovora, Lavkraft nalazi odgovor, ovakav ili onakav. Ali to nije sr.

drugo, jer sve što sr samo nagađa fizika odavno istražuje, dakle, sasvim precizna nauka razmatra odnos između objekata

potpuno je besmisleno da se vratimo bukvalno na nivo prvog filozofa od prije 2500 godina, koji je tvrdio da ''kamenje ima dušu''

to je moj najkraći osvrt na sr. Uelbek je pisac, samim tim pisac o piscu, može biti zanimljivo, a i ne mora. Bar nije u startu promašeno kao sr.

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #264 on: 02-01-2014, 04:51:46 »
Lovecraftian School Board Member Wants Madness Added To Curriculum
 
ARKHAM, MA—Arguing that students should return to the fundamentals taught in the Pnakotic Manuscripts and the Necronomicon in order to develop the skills they need to be driven to the very edge of sanity, Arkham school board member Charles West continued to advance his pro-madness agenda at the district's monthly meeting Tuesday.
"Fools!" said West, his clenched fist striking the lectern before him. "We must prepare today's youth for a world whose terrors are etched upon ancient clay tablets recounting the fever-dreams of the other gods—not fill their heads with such trivia as math and English. Our graduates need to know about those who lie beneath the earth, waiting until the stars align so they can return to their rightful place as our masters and wage war against the Elder Things and the shoggoths!"
The controversial school board member reportedly interrupted a heated discussion about adding fresh fruit to school lunches in order to bring his motion to the table. With the aid of a flip chart, West laid out his six-point plan for increased madness, which included field trips to the medieval metaphysics department at Miskatonic University, instruction in the incantations of Yog-Sothoth, and a walkathon sponsored by local businesses to raise money for the freshman basketball program.
"Our schools are orderly, sanitary places where students dwell in blissful ignorance of the chaos that awaits," West said. "Should our facilities be repaired? No, they must be razed to the ground and rebuilt in the image of the Cyclopean dwellings of the Elder Gods, the very geometry of which will drive them to be possessed by visions of the realms beyond."
West has served on the school board since 1997, when he defeated 89-year-old incumbent Doris Pesce by promising to enforce dress codes and refer repeat disciplinary cases to the three-lobed burning eye. He has run unopposed ever since.
"Charles sure likes to bang on that madness drum," fellow school board member Danielle Kolker said. "I'm not totally sold on his plan to let gibbering, half-formed creatures dripping with ichor feed off the flesh and fear of our students. But he is always on time to help set up for our spaghetti suppers, and his bake sale goods are among the most popular."
"I must admit, he's very convincing," Kolker added.
West's previous failed proposals include requiring the high school band to perform the tuneless flute songs of the blind idiot god Azathoth and offering art students instruction in the carving of morbid and obscene fetishes from otherworldly media.
Several parents attending the meeting were not impressed by West's outburst.
"Last month, he wanted us to change the high school's motto from 'Many Kinds of Excellence' to 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn,'" PTA member Cathy Perry said. "I asked if it was Latin, and he said that it was the eldritch tongue of Shub- Niggurath, the Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young. I don't know from eldritch tongues, but I'm not sure that's such a good idea."
"We already changed the name of the school from Abraham Lincoln High to Nyarlathotep Academy," Perry added. "What more does he want?"
Immediately before the vote on his motion, which was defeated eight to one, West gave his final remarks, arguing that the children are our future and that it's the school board's obligation to make sure they are fully versed in the unspeakable horrors still to come.
"In the information age, it is easier than ever to gather knowledge about things that should not be but nonetheless are, and such wisdom could prepare our students to be better citizens amid the ruins of sunken cities infested with swarms of ravenous, bloated rats," West said. "Also, I believe that birth control should not be distributed by the guidance counselor."
All of West's remaining proposals were tabled so the board could debate repairing the hole in the locker-room wall, as five students have disappeared in the adjacent skull-filled catacombs since the opening was discovered last week.
 
http://www.theonion.com/articles/lovecraftian-school-board-member-wants-madness-add,2672/
 

entelehija

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #265 on: 23-01-2014, 17:47:43 »
Da li neko čitao ovu studiju i ako jeste, da li je dobra?
http://www.amazon.com/Weird-Realism-Philosophy-Graham-Harman/dp/1780992521/ref=pd_cp_b_3

Ko ne bi da "baca novac", može knjigu skinuti sa scribd-a:
Weird Realism - Lovecraft and Philosophy

knjiga je vrlo zanimljiva.

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #266 on: 23-01-2014, 17:52:49 »
hvala! proučićemo!

Dzorig FSB

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #267 on: 13-02-2014, 16:32:37 »

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #268 on: 15-03-2014, 13:48:16 »
To Howard Phillips Lovecraft

Clark Ashton Smith



Lover of hills and fields and towns antique,
How hast thou wandered hence
On ways not found before,
Beyond the dawnward spires of Providence?
Hast thou gone forth to seek
Some older bourn than these—
Some Arkham of the prime and central wizardries?
Or, with familiar felidae,
Dost now some new and secret wood explore,
A little past the senses' farther wall—
Where spring and sunset charm the eternal path
From Earth to ether in dimensions nemoral?
Or has the Silver Key
Opened perchance for thee
Wonders and dreams and worlds ulterior?
Hast thou gone home to Ulthar or to Pnath?
Has the high king who reigns in dim Kadath
Called back his courtly, sage ambassador?
Or darkling Cthulhu sent
The sign which makes thee now a councilor
Within that foundered fortress of the deep
Where the Old Ones stir in sleep
Till mighty temblors shake their slumbering continent?

Lo! in this little interim of days
How far thy feet are sped
Upon the fabulous and mooted ways
Where walk the mythic dead!
For us the grief, for us the mystery. . . .
And yet thou art not gone
Nor given wholly unto dream and dust:
For, even upon
This lonely western hill of Averoigne
Thy flesh had never visited,
I meet some wise and sentient wraith of thee,
Some undeparting presence, gracious and august.
More luminous for thee the vernal grass,
More magically dark the Druid stone,
And in the mind thou art forever shown
As in a magic glass;
And from the spirit's page thy runes can never pass.

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #269 on: 16-03-2014, 13:42:59 »
nekoliko lepih lavkraftovskih vesti, najava i obznana

Lavkraft živi: u prozi, poeziji, stripu...



http://cultofghoul.blogspot.com/2014/03/lavkraft-zivi-u-prozi-poeziji-stripu.html


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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #270 on: 08-05-2014, 16:44:25 »

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #271 on: 10-08-2014, 13:11:10 »
IZVANREDAN text povodom IMBECILNE inicijative da se lavkraftov lik skloni sa statue za 'world fantasy award' i zameni tamo nekom za taj kontext irelevantnom crnkinjom - kao i povodom otrcanih tvrdnji da je HPL bio loš pisac, odnosno "a terrible wordsmith".

piso nik mamatas, za sve bobane i čobane ovog sveta:


Was H.P. Lovecraft a good writer?  


[Aug. 9th, 2014|11:18 pm]


There's a petition going around requesting that the World Fantasy Award change its prize from a bust of H.P. Lovecraft to one of Octavia Butler, and it is a ridiculous petition for several reasons. The one non-ridiculous reason is that H.P. Lovecraft's racism stains his legacy and upsets many people, as well it should. Back in 2011 I made an alternative suggestion of a chimera for the World Fantasy award's prize. With that out of the way, let's discuss the reasons the petition is ridiculous:
 
 1. Octavia Butler was not known as a fantasist, did not write fantasy for the most part, and did not primarily identify as a fantasist. The one big exception is Kindred, which she declared a "grim fantasy", even as critics have suggested that it is SF about genetics and evolutionary psychology. (An example.)
 
 2. She's a well-loved figure though, which means that there's a lot of enthusiasm for the petition right now. It also potentially makes a heavy brickbat for anyone who comes out against the petition. A few years ago, some people tried to rally HWA to get the Bram Stoker First Novel category named after Charles Grant...who had little to do with first novels other than having published one himself. (He did cultivate new authors via short stories.) When some objected to the name change, there were all sorts of quivering lips and lamentations that garsh too bad people don't care that Charlie is moldering in the ground, alone and forgotten snif snif... So, you were either in favor of the name change, or in favor of digging Grant up and shitting on his corpse, you meanie.
 
 Or, shorter: it is always a bad idea to make a person into a prize, since the prize is then tied to the reputation of the person. (Sometimes prizes are designed to rehabilitate a reputation, a la the Nobel.) With writers, whose works are always up for reappraisal, this is especially fraught. The Lovecraft/World Fantasy issue is an example of that. Is Butler's reputation so fully bulletproof, forever? Don't count on it.
 
 3. The petition also claims that Lovecraft was "a terrible wordsmith." Wrong. Lovecraft was a superior writer. As I put it on Twitter, "he had a pretty clear aesthetic and used polyphony well to build authority for the ineffable." Generally, complaints about Lovecraft's writing boils down to "He said 'squamous' and I had to look that up." Petitioner Daniel José Older previously said of another word associated with Lovecraft, cyclopean: "What image are we to take from this? Buildings with a single window at the top? Buildings built by one-eyed giants? It means nothing to me visually, yet it’s clearly one of Lovecraft’s favorite adjectives." Yes, well, look it up. Cyclopean means gigantic and uneven and rough-hewn. Cyclopean masonry is a term of art in archeology. Lovecraft was actually a skilled wordsmith, and chose very specific language. Older himself notes that Lovecraft used "collage of firsthand documents and local lore told with thick, regional accents." Lovecraft wasn't a one-note bleater of ten-dollar words; he used the lingo his various characters would have. And as such, he could be
 
 whimsical: Non-Euclidean calculus and quantum physics are enough to stretch any brain, and when one mixes them with folklore, and tries to trace a strange background of multi-dimensional reality behind the ghoulish hints of the Gothic tales and the wild whispers of the chimney-corner, one can hardly expect to be wholly free from mental tension. ("Dreams in the Witch House")
 
 understated: Thaddeus went mad in September after a visit to the well. He had gone with a pail and had come back empty-handed, shrieking and waving his arms, and sometimes lapsing into an inane titter or a whisper about "the moving colours down there." Two in one family was pretty bad, but Nahum was very brave about it. ("The Colour Out of Space")
 
 baroque: I shall plan my cousin's escape from that Canton mad-house, and together we shall go to marvel-shadowed Innsmouth. We shall swim out to that brooding reef in the sea and dive down through black abysses to Cyclopean and many-columned Y'ha-nthlei, and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever. ("The Shadow Over Innsmouth")
 
 self-reflexively ironical: My tale had been called “The Attic Window”, and appeared in the January, 1922, issue of Whispers. In a good many places, especially the South and the Pacific coast, they took the magazines off the stands at the complaints of silly milksops; but New England didn’t get the thrill and merely shrugged its shoulders at my extravagance. ("The Unnameable")
 
 parodic: Later traded to Jacques Caboche, another settler, it [the skull of a Roman named "Ibid"—NK] was in 1850 lost in a game of chess or poker to a newcomer named Hans Zimmerman; being used by him as a beer-stein until one day, under the spell of its contents, he suffered it to roll from his front stoop to the prairie path before his home—where, falling into the burrow of a prairie-dog, it passed beyond his power of discovery or recovery upon his awaking. ("Ibid")
 
 hysteric: The space-time globule which we recognize as the totality of all cosmic entity is only an atom in the genuine infinity which is theirs. And as much of this infinity as any human brain can hold is eventually to be opened up to me, as it has been to not more than fifty other men since the human race has existed. ("The Whisperer in Darkness")
 
 straightforward: The train service to Brattleboro is not bad - you can get a timetable in Boston. Take the B. & M. to Greenfield, and then change for the brief remainder of the way. I suggest your taking the convenient 4:10 P.M. - standard-from Boston. This gets into Greenfield at 7:35, and at 9:19 a train leaves there which reaches Brattleboro at 10:01. That is weekdays. Let me know the date and I’ll have my car on hand at the station. ("The Whisperer in Darkness", from the same Akeley letter, composed by aliens as a trap, as above. The implied story point in shifting from hysteric to straightforward is obvious.)
 
 We could go on picking sentences and paragraphs indefinitely, but let's not. We should also look at pacing. One might say that a Lovecraft story stays afloat by way of masterful deployment of eerie details. That would be a quote from Older again, who apparently thinks what...that Lovecraft was a good writer when it came to pacing, but a terrible one when it came to words and sentences? And yet pacing is simply a matter of the speed with which one is compelled to read on. So we can't mean sentences, but just individual words—a wordsmith that creates a masterful pace out of bad word choices?
 
 It's really not that difficult. Why does "cyclopean" appear in, say, "The Shadow Over Innsmouth"? The narrator is a student and a declassed part of New England's elite. (He discovers that he's a descendent of the wealthy Obed Marsh.) He'd know the word and use it. Would the station agent in the same story use it? No, he'd say something like "Leaves the square - front of Hammond's Drug Store - at 10 a.m. and 7 p.m. unless they've changed lately. Looks like a terrible rattletrap - I've never been on it." And he does. Lovecraft's narrators are often intellectuals—is it really a surprise that Peaslee, a professor of political economy, narrates "The Shadow Out of Time" like so:
 
 This is a highly important fact in view of the shadow which fell so suddenly upon me from outside sources. It may be that centuries of dark brooding had given to crumbling, whisper-haunted Arkham a peculiar vulnerability as regards such shadows—though even this seems doubtful in the light of those other cases which I later came to study. But the chief point is that my own ancestry and background are altogether normal. What came, came from somewhere else—where, I even now hesitate to assert in plain words.
 
 Let's compare it to the rhetoric of an actual political economist:
 
 On this sandy and false foundation we scheme for social improvement and dress our political platforms, pursue our animosities and particular ambitions, and feel ourselves with enough margin in hand to foster, not assuage, civil conflict in the European family. Moved by insane delusion and reckless self-regard, the German people overturned the foundations on which we all lived and built. But the spokesmen of the French and British peoples have run the risk of completing the ruin, which Germany began, by a Peace which, if it is carried into effect, must impair yet further, when it might have restored, the delicate, complicated organization, already shaken and broken by war, through which alone the European peoples can employ themselves and live.
 
 That's Keynes, btw, in the introduction to The Economic Consequences of the Peace from 1919. Similar sentence structures, similar free use of figurative language, and a sense of holding court even in the preliminary throat-clearings before a case is being set out. Switch Keynes for a Yithian for a few years, and he'd come back nervous and drooling and sounds even more like Peaslee than he already does.
 
 Of course Lovecraft's prose is not perfect, and is not beyond criticism. But if there are aspects to wordsmithing that go beyond matching prose to character; the ability to strike several different tones and moods both within and between stories; and pacing that keeps a reader riveted to the page and suspending disbelief despite unrealistic, phantasmagorical, and occasionally gruesome descriptions, they are minor aspects. It's perfectly acceptable to object to Lovecraft's themes, which are often explicitly or implicitly racist and xenophobic (and inseparable from the text), but that's not the same as claiming that he's a bad writer or a terrible wordsmith. It's also perfectly acceptable to complain that most of his narrators just have some horrible experience, or hear about one from the past after coming across traces of a supernatural reality, and then go crazy. But that's not about being a "wordsmith" either.
 
 When you don't know the meaning of a word, look it up. It was good advice in third grade, it is good advice now.
 
http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1893140.html





PS: ZAKK, ZAŠTO JE VEĆI DEO OVOGA PRECRTAN? JEL TO NEKI ZS NAMETNUT SISTEM ZA OGRANIČENJE CITIRANJA SA STRANE, IL SE OVAJ MAMATAS NEKAKO ZAŠTITIO OD TOGA?

Nightflier

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #272 on: 10-08-2014, 13:29:38 »
Mnjah. Cela stvar je pomalo ironična zato što je Džo Hil autor trenutno možda najbolje lavkraftijanske storije (Locke & Key). Na stranu to što ja nisam oduševljen njegovim stilom (nikada mi nije godio taj kvaziviktorijanski izraz), ne može se dovoditi u sumnju Lavkraftov značaj za razvoj žanrovske fantastike. Štaviše, mislim da je Lavkraft značajniji kao nadahnuće potonjim generacijama (kao što je I Hauard, Vens i zilion drugih pisaca) nego kao autor sam za sebe.

E sad, to što je bio kreten ne umanjuje njegov značaj za razvoj žanra. Pristalica sam razdvajanja umetničke vrednosti ili uticaja dela nekog umetnika od njegovih političkih ili bilo kakvih drugih stavova. U suprotnom, šta da mislim o Simonsu ili Pračetu - koji su se zalagali za bombardovanje Srbije (doduše, iz različitih razloga)?

Sa treće strane, Hil je sjajan pisac i jedan od retkih aktuelnih autora koji se drži klasičnog horora i u načelu izbegava prelazak u (komercijalniju) urbanu fantastiku.
Sebarsko je da budu gladni.
First 666

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #273 on: 10-08-2014, 13:41:33 »
hill je dobar "wordsmith" ali ne mnogo više od toga.

znači, ima tehniku, 'pismen je', što bi rekli neki ovdašnji, zna da ispriča priču - a da li je i koliko je ta priča uopšte vredna pričanja, da li i koliko REZONIRA tako da se upamti, da traje, da proizvodi UTICAJE I INSPIRACIJU... e, to je pitanje.

inače, o lavkraftovom stilu naširoko sam pisao u svom doktoratu, pa ćete o tome moći da čitate već za oko 2 meseca u POETICI HORORA...

naravno da je on daleko važniji kao pisac - svojim sopstvenim opusom - nego po uticaju, jer niko od tih na koje je direktno uticao nije mu prišao ni blizu (izuzev ligotija, ali tu se ne radi o uticaju koliko o poklapanju).

Nightflier

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #274 on: 10-08-2014, 14:35:40 »
Jebiga, ne slažem se.

Hil je još mlad pisac da bi na nekoga uticao ili ne, a tvom doktoratu svaka čast - ali ja svoj stav zasnivam na utisku koji sam stekao čitajući Lavkraftova pisanija. Priznajem, Ligotija nisam čitao, niti me nešto privlači da ga čitam, tako da u te vode ne bih zalazio.
Sebarsko je da budu gladni.
First 666

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #275 on: 10-08-2014, 15:10:34 »
pa dobro, tvom stavu i utiscima svaka čast, ali ovo što kažem nije zasnovano samo na utiscima nego i na dubinskom izučavanju, tako da, eto, slobodno se ne slaži - nije obavezno.

a ligotija slobodno zaobiđi - on je totalni antipod onome što inače čitaš; sigurno bi te smorio.
a i nezgodan je za skimming through - ono, dve stranice u minutu ili kako već to ide kod tebe.

Nightflier

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #276 on: 10-08-2014, 16:35:46 »
Vidim, udario PMS.

Zaobiđi me sa tim tvojim manirom komunikacije, leba ti. Em nisam raspoložen za flejm vorove, em me boli karanfil i za Lavkrafta i za Ligotija - a na kraju krajeva i za tvoje izučavanje i tvoj doktorat. Ako nećeš da imaš sagovornika, ne moraš.

Odo ja sad da malo skimujem.
Sebarsko je da budu gladni.
First 666

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #277 on: 10-08-2014, 17:07:55 »
me boli karanfil i za Lavkrafta i za Ligotija

koj se đavo onda oglašavaš na ovoj temi osim da nešto gunđaš?
pms?
bolje skimuj nešto što ti leži.

Nightflier

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #278 on: 10-08-2014, 17:20:00 »
Oglasio sam zbog WFA. Do toga mi je u nekoj bezmalo beskrajno maloj meri stalo. Ja pms rešavam slatkišima, kao svaka normalna žena, kojoj nisu usahli jajnici.
Sebarsko je da budu gladni.
First 666

PTY

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #279 on: 11-08-2014, 10:20:25 »
IZVANREDAN text povodom IMBECILNE inicijative da se lavkraftov lik skloni sa statue za 'world fantasy award'


Eh, da, tuga i jad... i dobar je tu Mamatas, a i iz samog tona se jasno da naslutiti koliko je teško razumnim ljudima kad se oko njih uskovitla nerazumlje. Inače, meni je ta afera zapečaćena još kad je Okorafor dobila nagradu, mislim da smo to i komentirali tu po forumu, i baš se fino moglo razabrati kud to vodi & odvodi neumna tiranija političke korektnosti, jer čim je najavljeno da je Nnedi pobednik odmah su počela manipulativna pitanja, tipa dal će statuetu da skriva po ormarima ili javno pokazuje. A najgore od svega, Nnedi je veoma veoma inteligentna i obrazovana žena, ali eto, tu na scenu stupa ono što je Kiš nazvao “pečatom rase i prokletstva”, pa se Nnedi osetila pozvanom da šampionira i neke vanžanrovske stvari. I nema u tome ničeg lošeg, naravno i naprotiv, samo da su okolnosti zdravorazumskije, ali eto, nisu…. Uostalom, čak i Mark Tven suočava istu sudbinu od ruku zealot revizionista, i to nam je to, glas nerazuma uglavnom dernjavom nadjača glas razuma, to je sad već postalo pravilo.

A ja inače jako jako poštujem Oktaviju Batler, pa se nadam da bar nju neće u sve to posthumno upetljati, ne samo zato što opusom i ne pripada bilo kakvom frontovanju te konkretno grane fanstastike, nego i zato što je stvarno ponižavajuće da se zatekne u centru jedne tako bezumne afere.  :(

Albedo 0

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #280 on: 11-08-2014, 12:27:04 »
ne pričaj sa njim, nabodiga!!! 8-)

PTY

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #281 on: 15-10-2014, 10:51:42 »
a evo i jos jedna sumarizacija, da ne bude kako je o ovome vec sve receno...
http://www.theawl.com/2014/09/where-should-we-bury-the-dead-racist-literary-giants

Quote

Where Should We Bury the Dead Racist Literary Giants?


H.P. Lovecraft is widely acclaimed as one of the great masters of horror. He created the Cthulhu mythos, a pantheon of hideous eldritch deities lurking outside of time that occasionally peep through into our reality to wreak havoc and drive men mad, is credited with inventing weird fantasy; and was a major influence on everyone from Stephen King to Alan Moore. He was also, like many authors of the early twentieth century, really racist.

In a famous letter from a stay in Brooklyn during the nineteen twenties, Lovecraft described the ethnic diversity around him in the same language he used to describe nightmare horrors:


"The organic things inhabiting that awful cesspool could not by any stretch of the imagination be call'd human. They were monstrous and nebulous adumbrations of the pithecanthropoid and amoebal; vaguely moulded from some stinking viscous slime of the earth's corruption, and slithering and oozing in and on the filthy streets or in and out of windows and doorways in a fashion suggestive of nothing but infesting worms or deep-sea unnamabilities."

Lovecraft isn't talking about monsters or demons there; he's referring to non-white people, whom he sees as "infesting worms" "pithecanthropoid and amoebal." He expresses similar sentiments in the poem below, which doesn't seem to have been published, but which he apparently sent to friends:


On the Creation of Niggers (1912)

When, long ago, the gods created Earth
 In Jove's fair image Man was shaped at birth.
 The beasts for lesser parts were next designed;
 Yet were they too remote from humankind.
 To fill the gap, and join the rest to Man,
 Th'Olympian host conceiv'd a clever plan.
 A beast they wrought, in semi-human figure,
 Filled it with vice, and called the thing a Nigger.

These less public works aren't outliers in Lovecraft's oeuvre. As Phenderson Djeli Clark wrote at Racialicious, "Lovecraft's racial biases ran deep and strong, as evidenced by his stories—from exotic locales with tropic natives lacerating themselves before mad gods in acts of 'negro fetishism' (Call of Cthulhu), to descriptions of a black man as 'gorilla-like' and one of the world's 'many ugly things' (Herbert West — Re-animator)." This presents Lovecraft's enthusiasts with a dilemma. How do you love a writer whose works are thoroughly infested with racism?

In a post that provoked some controversy earlier this year, Daniel José Older argued that the best thing to do with Lovecraft was to de-canonize him—implicitly relegating him to the same sort of backwater reserved for such works of racist pulp as Thomas Dixon's contemporary, and mostly forgotten The Clansman. For Older, Lovecraft's racism is central to his themes and his horror; his vision of hapless New Englanders besieged by degenerate chthonic monsters is insistently racialized, and the terror of the non-human in his work is inseparable from the eugenic disgust at the less-than-human.

Earlier this year, Older created a petition to get rid of the Lovecraft bust that is given to winners of the World Fantasy Award, one of the major awards given to authors of speculative fiction, along with the Hugo and the Nebula. Older suggests that the bust could be replaced with one of the widely respected science-fiction and fantasy author Octavia Butler, who is known for her thoughtful approach to issues of race and gender in stories like"Bloodchild" and the novel Kindred. Among the supporters of his petition are the acclaimed sci-fi/fantasy writer Nnedi Okorafor, who won the award in 2011 (and wrote about how upsetting it was to have Lovecraft glowering from her shelf), and previous nominees Kat Howard and N.K. Jemison.

Unsurprisingly, Lovecraft enthusiasts don't support the idea that his work should be cast into the howling darkness. In August, S. T. Joshi, probably the world's leading Lovecraft scholar, bristled at the suggestion that Lovecraft's racism should disqualify him from reverence. According to Joshi, only five Lovecraft stories have racism "as their central core." Besides, he argues, it is "a tad risky to judge figures of past historical epochs by the standards of our own perfect moral, political, and spiritual enlightenment."

But Lovecraft's racism isn't some sort of quaint relic that can easily be bracketed off from his writing as a whole; it's the engine for the loathing and nameless dread that are his trademark. Perhaps the best example is one of Lovecraft's greatest novellas, "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" from 1936. In the story, the unnamed narrator is touring New England to view unusual architecture when he happens upon Innsmouth, a coastal town with a bad reputation. When he approaches one of the residents of a nearby town to find out why everyone hates Innsmouth, he learns that the inhabitants of the cursed village have been mating with South Sea Islanders. According to the local source, "the real thing behind the way folks feel is simply race prejudice—and I don't say I'm blaming those that hold it."

Lovecraft makes it clear that the "race prejudice" is justified, and that people are right to recoil at miscegenation in Innsmouth: The islanders are not just from out of town, they are amphibious creatures—the spawn of strange and evil gods. As the result of their interbreeding, the residents take on a fish-like appearance which is referred to in the story as the "Innsmouth look."


His oddities certainly did not look Asiatic, Polynesian, Levantine or negroid, yet I could see why the people found him alien. I myself would have thought of biological degeneration rather than alienage.

Lovecraft, through the narrator, disavows the various racial groups in order to subsume them all into a single "alien" Other—and then link it to degeneration and animality. The residents of Innsmouth are foreign, which is expressed not through residence in a different place, but rather through their blank, oozing orginlessness; they are an indistinguishable mass of subhuman monstrosity. Later in the story, when the narrator flees in desperation, with the Innsmouth hordes at his heels, he catches a nightmarish glimpse of his pursuers:


I could see them plainly only a block away — and was horrified by the bestial abnormality of their faces and the doglike sub-humanness of their crouching gait. One man moved in a positively simian way, with long arms frequently touching the ground; while another figure—robed and tiaraed—seemed to progress in an almost hopping fashion….they passed on across the moonlit space without varying their course —meanwhile croaking and jabbering in more hateful guttural patois I could not identify.

The "hateful guttural patois" is unidentifiable; the world outside of the United States—or New England?—is a confusing, loathsome monstrosity. Non-white people don't exist as humans, but as symbols, or markers, of a grinding fear lodged in the white hindbrain—a fear that somewhere, out there, someone else exists. Lovecraft's timid protagonists, forever striving to not name the nameless terror before them for fear of going mad, are pitifully neutered expressions of genetically validated white manhood whose fear and weakness inevitably turns into a familiar orgy of violence: After the narrator escapes from Innsmouth he notifies the authorities, who come into town and exterminate everyone.

The story famously ends with the hero discovering that he has Innsmouth blood in his own genealogical tree. At first, horrified, he plans to kill himself, but then slowly begins to like the idea of becoming a fish monster. "I feel queerly drawn toward the unknown sea-depths instead of fearing them." The narrator determines to rescue his similarly Innsmouth-changed cousin, and the story concludes with one of the most beautifully written paragraphs Lovecraft ever penned:


I shall plan my cousin's escape from that Canton mad-house, and together we shall go to marvel-shadowed Innsmouth. We shall swim out to that brooding reef in the sea and dive down through black abysses to Cyclopean and many-columned Y'ha-nthlei, and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever.

The narrator, and by extension, Lovecraft, become the racial degenerate monster, and the experience is ecstatic, religious, sensual; racism turns into fetishization. It's as if John Calhoun woke up one morning and suddenly found himself transformed into Gauguin, or Eric Clapton. Lovecraft's repulsive non-white world is a threat. But it's also an opportunity; a dream that, someway, by some nameless horror, he can himself be debased.

Reading "A Shadow Over Innsmouth," it's clear that Older is right; Lovecraft's racism is absolutely central to his work. His monsters are racist fever dreams; his terror of degeneration is eugenic; the disgusted desire for the loathsome thing that concludes "Innsmouth" is the disgusted desire of Orientalism. Given that, WFA should find a different bust for their award.

At the same time, focusing on race in Lovecraft can also lead to a greater appreciation of his work, and a better understanding of its horror. Joshi may think he's protecting Lovecraft's legacy by minimizing the role of race in his stories, but the truth is that, to the extent that Lovecraft is still meaningful, it's in large part because of his portrait of his own racism. Lovecraft isn't a great artist despite being a racist, as Joshi would have it. Nor is he a lousy artist because he's a racist, as Older says. He's a great artist and he's a racist: Lovecraft's world is one in which racism poisons everything, in which the fear of anyone who isn't white is so overwhelming that it fills the seas and the skies and everything in between with gibbering demons and cosmic despair. The bleak, clotted hatred with which he renders that world is precisely what makes his work valuable.


Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #282 on: 07-12-2014, 11:13:03 »
prikaz odlične knjige
I Am Providence: The Life and Times of H. P. Lovecraft - S.T. Joshi



http://cultofghoul.blogspot.com/2014/12/i-am-providence-life-and-times-of-h-p.html

Dzorig FSB

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #283 on: 09-12-2014, 15:18:31 »
Quote
IZVANREDAN text povodom IMBECILNE inicijative da se lavkraftov lik skloni sa statue za 'world fantasy award' i zameni tamo nekom za taj kontext irelevantnom crnkinjom - kao i povodom otrcanih tvrdnji da je HPL bio loš pisac, odnosno "a terrible wordsmith".


S obzirom na VELIKANOVE ideje o khm... rasnoj hijerarhiji ne bih rekao da je irelevantno (odnosno ona mozda personalno i jeste) nego je pre zrtvovanje na oltaru politicke korektnosti  xuss
Zajedno sa cinjenicom da je dobar deo prateceg teksta precrtan - eto materijala za novu pricu o (teoriji) antilavkraftovske zavere  xnerd

Boban

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #284 on: 09-12-2014, 15:52:25 »
Stavljanje Lavkrafta na WFA je posledica želje dodeljivača nagrade da ne plaća autoru što koristi njegov lik; pa su imali vrlo malo izbora.
Inače i meni je potpuno besmisleno da on tamo cvrči.
Put ćemo naći ili ćemo ga napraviti.

Nightflier

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #285 on: 09-12-2014, 16:21:23 »
Meni je glupo što se nagrada koja se zove World Fantasy Award dodeljuje u vidu biste nekog pisca, pa ma ko on bio. Ako želimo da odamo omaž Lavkraftovom delu, zašto nagrada ne bi bila statua Ktulua? To bi već bilo veoma kul i niko ne bi kukao.
Sebarsko je da budu gladni.
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Boban

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #286 on: 09-12-2014, 16:38:44 »
a opet, kakve veze ima Lavkraft sa 99% pisaca nagrađenih sa WFA?
Put ćemo naći ili ćemo ga napraviti.

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #287 on: 09-12-2014, 16:39:40 »
Stavljanje Lavkrafta na WFA je posledica želje dodeljivača nagrade da ne plaća autoru što koristi njegov lik; pa su imali vrlo malo izbora.
Inače i meni je potpuno besmisleno da on tamo cvrči.

odluku su doneli neki viši nivoi koji tebe nisu ništa pitali, a ti ako nekad dobiješ tu nagradu (ha ha) - okreni je prema zidu, kao čajna majna mnjevil, ili odšrafi lavkrafta i sačuvaj samo postolje, kao ajkman.
ali pošto se to neće desiti, nemaš razloga da brineš.

btw. pitam se dal je zoća okrenuo svog lavkrafta ka zidu?  :idea: :evil:

Boban

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #288 on: 09-12-2014, 16:51:38 »
kaže da je baš ružan i neodgovarajući... fotka njegovog primerka krasi Znak sagite 13 - zadnju koricu.
Put ćemo naći ili ćemo ga napraviti.

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #289 on: 09-12-2014, 17:01:56 »
kaže da je baš ružan i neodgovarajući...

ne mogu opisati koliko mi je drago zbog toga.
volim što mu nije prijatno (zbog lavkrafta). :)
a i svakome drugome kome on smeta.

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #290 on: 31-01-2015, 02:41:43 »
a evo i jos jedna sumarizacija, da ne bude kako je o ovome vec sve receno...
http://www.theawl.com/2014/09/where-should-we-bury-the-dead-racist-literary-giants

meni je glupo i bespredmetno da se uopšte bavim raspravljanjem ovih besmislica, ali vodeći hpl proučavalac, s.t. džoši, po prirodi stvari, našao je za shodno da odvrati na neke od najčešćih kretenskih podmetačina o hpl rasizmu, i evo ih - kopiranih sa njegovog bloga:

January 29, 2015 — Charles Baxter on Lovecraft—Again!

I was a bit surprised to see that a highly truncated version of my response to Charles Baxter’s article in the New York Review of Books has been published in the new issue of that paper (dated February 19, 2015). I had sent my response to the editors of NYRB and was told that only a 400-word letter could be published. (My full response was ten times that length.) I hastily prepared such a letter, but then never heard from the editors as to whether it would be published or not.

Adding to the bizarrerie, Mr. Baxter has appended a reply that addresses, not the letter as published in NYRB, but my full response! I am not particularly impressed by Mr. Baxter’s reply, which I will hereby subject to a sentence-by-sentence analysis:

“One would think, reading S. T. Joshi’s response to my book review, that I had attacked the object of a cult.” [If correcting the errors of a critic’s analysis of a given writer constitutes defending a cult writer, then Poe, Melville, Whitman, Bierce, Hemingway, Mencken, and dozens of other writers are all cult writers. All these writers have faced, during and after their lifetimes, malicious and error-riddled attacks exactly along the lines of Baxter’s screed on Lovecraft.]
“His lengthy letter never acknowledges that my review of Lovecraft’s stories was divided into two parts: the first containing my misgivings about the fiction, the second containing guarded praise.” [This is a deliberate mischaracterisation of Baxter’s article. In fact, the first part of it was a grotesque slander against Lovecraft the person (as one who was “a stranger to joy” and who was a “shut-in,” etc. etc.). And while I could have addressed some errors and distortions in the “guarded praise” in the second part of the article, that didn’t seem to me sufficiently important to discuss.]
“I am not surprised that Joshi, who has spent much of his life studying Lovecraft, was affronted by my review, but he doesn’t seem to understand the distinction between matters of fact and matters of judgment. Readers of Lovecraft can judge for themselves whether Lovecraft’s prose contains infelicities of style, along with misogyny and racism.” [Mr. Baxter stubbornly refused to acknowledge the numerous errors of “fact” that he made in his review; and many of his “judgments” on Lovecraft are based directly on those errors of fact.]
“Joshi’s argument against the stories’ misogyny is of the some-of-his-best-friends-were-women variety, a confusion of the work and the life.” [To call someone a “misogynist,” as Baxter did in his article, is to make a fairly clear personal comment—or attack—on a writer’s character, and it is false and disingenuous to claim that the assertion merely reflects an interpretation of the author’s literary work. In any event, I have clearly established that Baxter has misinterpreted key elements of the stories in finding a misogynist undercurrent where there is none.]
“As for Lovecraft’s racism, Joshi’s defense of Lovecraft’s views in his letter is astonishing in this day and age; he quotes, with apparent approval, Lovecraft’s suggestion of apartheid as a benevolent remedy.” [My whole argument, in discussing HPL’s racism, is that it is unfair and unwise to judge him based on the standards of “this day and age”—very few (including such known racists and anti-Semites as Jack London, T. S. Eliot, and Roald Dahl) would come away unscathed from such scrutiny. In any event, the “apartheid” that HPL recommended was one that a number of black leaders of his day (e.g., Marcus Garvey) had themselves advocated.]
“Joshi seems unable to grasp my argument that the racism is at the core of the stories’ horror of aliens.” [I can’t grasp this argument because it is nonsensical and belied by the plain facts of the case. It is a highly tortuous and prejudicial reading of Lovecraft’s stories to maintain that any of his extraterrestrial “gods” and monsters—with the exception of the Deep Ones in “The Shadow over Innsmouth”—are somehow meant as stand-ins for ethnic minorities. See more on this below.]
“I never denied that the stories have a disturbing power. What readers should certainly note, however, is that Joshi is territorial; while I grant him the right to his opinions, he does not grant me a right to mine.” [Now Baxter has descended to whining. It is the last, desperate ploy of persons losing a debate to plead that their opponents are trying to “silence” them. Baxter is free to say anything he wants on Lovecraft; but surely I am free to rebut his arguments and point out their errors and fallacies. No one is trying to abridge Baxter’s freedom of speech; but “freedom of speech” does not imply freedom from criticism. Baxter seems to think he can say anything he wants on Lovecraft and not face critical scrutiny—but that would be a denial of my freedom of speech, and of the speech of any others who don’t agree with him.]
Things get curiouser and curiouser. Another letter published in the NYRB issue is by one Mark Halpern. It addresses nothing in Baxter’s own article but attacks me for some perceived failings in my biography of Lovecraft—or, rather, one failing in particular, to wit: “Joshi must have been suffering from one of his rare moments of fatigue when it came to linking his subject’s attitude toward Jews and other sorts of non-Nordic immigrants to New York’s Lower East Side to the emotional source of Cthulhu and his like, because he writes not one word about the topic in his otherwise painfully detailed biography.” Well, lordy me! I confess to be guilty as charged—because there is little or no connection between Lovecraft’s racism and his creation of the “gods and monsters” in his fiction.

It is most curious how many recent critics (Charles Baxter, Laura Miller, and now Mr. Halpern) have put forth this view without providing the slighest evidence for it. Let us examine the physical properties of Lovecraft’s iconic creation, Cthulhu. When the narrator of “The Call of Cthulhu” first sees Wilcox’s bas-relief of the creature, he describes it as follows: “If I say that my somewhat extravagant imagination yielded simultaneous pictures of an octopus, a dragon, and a human caricature, I shall not be unfaithful to the spirit of the thing. A pulpy, tentacled head surmounted a grotesque and scaly body with rudimentary wings; but it was the general outline of the whole which made it most shockingly frightful.” Lovecraft’s description of the actual sight of Cthulhu by Johansen is deliberately vague, but we do have this: “The Thing of the idols, the green, sticky spawn of the stars, had awaked to claim his own.” Uh-oh—Cthulhu is green! Maybe this means that he is a stand-in for “people of colour”! If you believe that, there’s a bridge nearby that I’d like to sell you.

It is true that the Cthulhu cultists in Louisiana do symbolise Lovecraft’s disdain of certain types of foreigners: they were “men of a very low, mixed-blooded, and mentally aberrant type. Most were seamen, and a sprinkling of negroes and mulattoes, largely West Indians or Brava Portuguese from the Cape Verde Islands, gave a colouring of voodooism to the heterogeneous cult.” Well and good; but this whole passage (the second section of the story) is largely an elaborate “info dump” whereby we learn the basic properties of Cthulhu and his “spawn,” as recounted by “old Castro.” I don’t see that there is anything specifically anti-Semtiic in the passage above. Mr. Halpern (who predictably refers to Lovecraft’s “pathological anti-Semitism”) will be surprised to learn that Lovecraft repeatedly declared his belief that Jews in both America and Europe were in several ways culturally superior to Anglo-Saxons—something that could certainly not be said of the Cthulhu cultists in Louisiana.

How about Lovecraft’s other “gods and monsters”? Azathoth? He is described in one story as follows: “that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time …” Any racist implications there, people?

Yog-Sothoth, maybe? We hear of him as “a congeries of iridescent globes.” There must be a racist implication there somewhere, but—Gawdelpme—I just don’t have the critical acumen to detect it.

Shub-Niggurath? Well, she is usually mentioned in the same breath as “The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young.” Omigod!—black goat! All right, that’s it: she must be a stand-in for HPL’s disdain for black women who breed a lot! What else is possible? Well, wait a minute…HPL does describe her elsewhere as “a kind of sophisticated Astarte,” so I guess we can presume that HPL was prejudiced against the ancient Mesopotamians.

Nyarlathotep also seems very promising. He is first described as having the bearing of a Pharaoh. OK, no question about it—this must reflect HPL’s prejudice against Arabs! But it seems that Nyarlathotep emerged “from the blackness of twenty-seven centuries”—meaning that he emerged about thirteen centuries before the birth of Mohammad. But didn’t HPL describe him as the “Black Man” in “The Dreams in the Witch House”? Oh, wait—that was the standard designation for the leader of a witch coven. And HPL states specifically that the Black Man in that story was devoid of negroid features.

How about the fungi from Yuggoth in “The Whisperer in Darkness”? Well, they’re described as “half-fungous, half-crustacean creatures from a planet identifiable as the remote and recently discovered Pluto”; so unless we assume that HPL had a prejudice against mushrooms or crabs, I don’t see any racist undercurrent here.

The Old Ones of At the Mountains of Madness? They are barrel-shaped creatures with starfish-heads and tentacles. Again I struggle to connect them with HPL’s racism. Anyway, aren’t they substantially superior to humans in intellect and many other qualities? What about those loathsome shoggoths? I suppose something could be made of the fact that they are immense, amorphous masses of black protoplasm …

The Great Race of “The Shadow out of Time”? They are huge, rugose, cone-shaped creatures who are also vastly superior to human beings, since they are virtually omniscient and have conquered time. Not much racism there, I fear.

I have repeatedly maintained that the only major story by Lovecraft based on racist presuppositions is “The Shadow over Innsmouth.” And (pace Mr. Halpern) I do in fact discuss this matter at length in my biography. Here is some of what I wrote there: “‘The Shadow over Innsmouth’ is…clearly a cautionary tale on the ill effects of miscegenation, or the sexual union of different races…It is, accordingly, difficult to deny a suggestion of racism running all through the story.” There is much more to this effect, but I trust that will do.

Our valiant critics have also failed to notice the several stories in which various unsavoury characters are unmistakably Caucasian. This applies particularly to the aristocratic Dutch-American family in “The Lurking Fear,” the wealthy Anglo-American family in “The Rats in the Walls,” and even the “decadent” inhabitants of Dunwich in “The Dunwich Horror.” The Dunwich denizens are clearly a racially homogeneous (white) clan of backwoods New England farmers; there seem to be no ethnic minorities there. If one didn’t know who wrote these stories, one could easily conclude that their author was prejudiced against white people!

The plain fact is that most of Lovecraft’s “gods and monsters” are meant to symbolise the immensity—both spatial and temporal—of a universe where human beings occupy a derisively insignificant place. Their titanic power and anomalous physical properties are metaphors for the inscrutability of a universe where things may be very different from the way they are here.

Those hostile critics seeking to maintain some intimate connection between Lovecraft’s racism and the creation of these alien entities will have to put forth more than mere assertions to make their case. In my mind, the evidence is overwhelmingly against them.

http://www.stjoshi.org/news.html

PTY

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #291 on: 31-01-2015, 10:10:11 »
a evo i jos jedna sumarizacija, da ne bude kako je o ovome vec sve receno...
http://www.theawl.com/2014/09/where-should-we-bury-the-dead-racist-literary-giants

meni je glupo i bespredmetno da se uopšte bavim raspravljanjem ovih besmislica...


Ghoule, ne sumnjam da znaš koliko ja cenim tvoje mišljenje, pogotovo o ovim stvarima koje spadaju u domen kojim suvereno barataš, ali ipak, molila bih te da samo za sekundicu jednu dozvoliš sebi radikalnu, ali zaista radikalnu promenu perspektive: da za tu sekundu porazmisliš kako bi ti ceo ovaj koncept izgledao da si kojim slučajem rođen kao crnac.


a to jeste okolnost koja spada u onu sivu zonu nad kojom niko od nas nema nikakve urođene intelektualne ili moralne superiornosti, znaš... niko od nas nije birao niti je mogao da bira gde i od koga će se da rodi... :( 

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #292 on: 31-01-2015, 10:14:12 »
kako bi ti ceo ovaj koncept izgledao da si kojim slučajem rođen kao crnac.

izgledao bi mi isto kao s. t. džošiju, gorecitiranom, koji se rodio - ovakav:



PTY

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #293 on: 31-01-2015, 10:20:46 »
ama... na njega jednoga ja imam trideset crnačkih imena koja tvrde suprotno...
fakt da on lako prelazi preko tih kontroverzi ne bi trebalo podizati na nivo norme...
ili misliš da jedan crnac može i treba da govori za sve crnce... ??

Ghoul

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #294 on: 31-01-2015, 10:23:05 »
strogo gledano, džoši nije crnac. on je (poreklom) indus.

ali ne zanima me da mu gledam u krštenicu niti u sliku: gledam i govorim samo o argumentima.
džošijevi su čvrsti kano klisurine i isto bi tako mirisali i da ih iznosi plavooki šveđanin, ili rus.
ovo što ti 'povređeni' crnci i drugi dušebrižnici spočitavaju nema skoro nikakve osnove u lavkraftovim PRIČAMA.

PTY

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #295 on: 31-01-2015, 10:34:17 »
strogo gledano, Džoši je inferiorno ljudsko biće, samo zato što nije belac.
Strogo gledano, a po istoj klasifikaciji, i svi sloveni su po difoltu inferiorna ljudska bića, jer nisu belci po genima nego samo po mimikriji, otud i mogu donekle da se švercuju...  :(






PTY

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #296 on: 31-01-2015, 10:57:31 »
da pojasnim: jednom kad "strogo gledaš", tačka gledišta postaje neobično važna.


ja imam tu (ne)sreću da mi je više puta u životu objašnjeno gde zapravo spadam: jednom, pri aplikaciji za državljanstvo, rečeno mi je da ne spadam u "belu" rasu, i to na upitniku koji je imao sledeće opcije: white, black, coloured, indian, chinese, other. To je 94te bio zvanični formular ne samo zemlje u kojoj živim, nego Commonwealtha. Pri aplikaciji mi je rečeno da nemam prava na tu konkretnu definiciju "white", bez obzira na očiglednu boju kože: rečeno mi je da sloveni, baš kao i sve latino rase, spadaju u "other".


Dakle, nije tu bog zna kako bitno kako ti vidiš i doživljavaš sebe.
alas.

Kimura

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #297 on: 31-01-2015, 12:10:03 »
da pojasnim: jednom kad "strogo gledaš", tačka gledišta postaje neobično važna.


ja imam tu (ne)sreću da mi je više puta u životu objašnjeno gde zapravo spadam: jednom, pri aplikaciji za državljanstvo, rečeno mi je da ne spadam u "belu" rasu, i to na upitniku koji je imao sledeće opcije: white, black, coloured, indian, chinese, other. To je 94te bio zvanični formular ne samo zemlje u kojoj živim, nego Commonwealtha. Pri aplikaciji mi je rečeno da nemam prava na tu konkretnu definiciju "white", bez obzira na očiglednu boju kože: rečeno mi je da sloveni, baš kao i sve latino rase, spadaju u "other".


Dakle, nije tu bog zna kako bitno kako ti vidiš i doživljavaš sebe.
alas.


Korisna informacija.

PTY

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #298 on: 31-01-2015, 12:32:19 »
Zašto ti je korisna? za put vremeplovom do ondašnjeg Komonvelta?  :)


šalim se, naravno, ali ne zaboravi, danas su upravo oni prvaci u svim bogovetnim slobodama, to od gej braka i usvajanja dece pa do rasnog abolicionizma u najvrhunskijem mu dometu: tolerancija poput ovdašnje retko se gde može naći.


Cenu toga su plaćali obični, mali ljudi koji su vehemetno odbijali da ih se klasifikuje po upravo onom upitniku koji gore pominjem: ne ja, jer ja sam tad bila tek intelekt na nivou amebe, ali plaćali su je ponajviše ljudi koji su voljno prihvatali percepcije potlačenih, istovremeno odbijajući svoju privilegovanu, to od Gandija preko Madibe pa sve do Gordimer - bio je to maltene talas empatije kakvog danas očigledno više nema.


Ali ustranu te specifičnosti, poenta je da je upravo percepcija ta koja definiše i oblikuje čoveka: ignorisati percepciju našeg bližnjega čini nas nehumano autističnima, to u prozi i politici jednako.

angel011

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Re: Lavkraft
« Reply #299 on: 31-01-2015, 12:39:14 »
Po toj klasifikaciji, koja je razlika između black i coloured?


Jevreji, pretpostavljam, spadaju u other.


Gde spadaju Japanci i, recimo, Koreanci? U chinese ili other?


Ko uopšte spada u belce? Samo Englezi?
We're all mad here.