Gojaznost

[Meho Krljic]

Kako sve više i više nas pati od poremećaja telesne težine a koji je vezan ne samo za starenje i promene u metabolizmu već i za navike u ishrani i dostupnost zdravije i manje zdrave hrane, red je da se otvori tema koja će se baviti gojaznošću, navikama u ishrani koje do nje dovode ili od nje čuvaju, trendovima u industriji namirnica koji doprinose njenom širenju, psihološkim efektima promene telesne težine, socijalnom stigmatizacijom određenih tipova telesne građe, dijetama itd.

Da?

Da.

Za inauguralni post, odabrao sam ovu studiju koja potvrđuje ono što anegdotalno većina nas koji se borimo sa sopstvenim telom ionako zna: dijeta retko vodi direktno u smeru željene telesne težine:


Low chance of obese people recovering normal body weight

The chance of an obese person attaining normal body weight is 1 in 210 for men and 1 in 124 for women, increasing to 1 in 1,290 for men and 1 in 677 for women with severe obesity, according to a study of UK health records led by King's College London. The findings, published in the American Journal of Public Health, suggest that current weight management programmes focused on dieting and exercise are not effective in tackling obesity at population level.
  The research, funded by the National Institute for Health Research (NIHR), tracked the weight of 278,982 participants (129,194 men and 149,788) women using electronic health records from 2004 to 2014. The study looked at the probability of obese patients attaining normal weight or a 5% reduction in body weight; patients who received bariatric surgery were excluded from the study. A minimum of three body mass index (BMI) records per patient was used to estimate weight changes.
The annual chance of obese patients achieving five per cent weight loss was 1 in 12 for men and 1 in 10 for women. For those people who achieved five per cent weight loss, 53 per cent regained this weight within two years and 78 percent had regained the weight within five years.
Overall, only 1,283 men and 2,245 women with a BMI of 30-35 reached their normal body weight, equivalent to an annual probability of 1 in 210 for men and 1 in 124 for women; for those with a BMI above 40, the odds increased to 1 in 1,290 for men and 1 in 677 for women with severe obesity.
Weight cycling, with both increases and decreases in body weight, was also observed in more than a third of patients. The study concludes that current obesity treatments are failing to achieve sustained weight loss for the majority of obese patients.
Dr Alison Fildes, first author from the Division of Health and Social Care Research at King's College London (and now based at UCL), said: 'Losing 5 to 10 per cent of your body weight has been shown to have meaningful health benefits and is often recommended as a weight loss target. These findings highlight how difficult it is for people with obesity to achieve and maintain even small amounts of weight loss.'
'The main treatment options offered to obese patients in the UK are weight management programmes accessed via their GP. This evidence suggests the current system is not working for the vast majority of obese patients.'
'Once an adult becomes obese, it is very unlikely that they will return to a healthy body weight. New approaches are urgently needed to deal with this issue. Obesity treatments should focus on preventing overweight and obese patients gaining further weight, while also helping those that do lose weight to keep it off. More importantly, priority needs to be placed on preventing weight gain in the first place.'
Professor Martin Gulliford, senior author from the Division of Health and Social Care Research at King's College London, said: 'Current strategies to tackle obesity, which mainly focus on cutting calories and boosting physical activity, are failing to help the majority of obese patients to shed weight and maintain that weight loss. The greatest opportunity for stemming the current obesity epidemic is in wider-reaching public health policies to prevent obesity in the population.'
     
                     Story Source:
The above post is reprinted from materials provided by King's College London. Note: Materials may be edited for content and length.
 
Journal Reference:
 

• Alison Fildes, Judith Charlton, Caroline Rudisill, Peter Littlejohns, A. Toby Prevost, Martin C. Gulliford. Probability of an Obese Person Attaining Normal Body Weight: Cohort Study Using Electronic Health Records. American Journal of Public Health, 2015; e1 DOI: 10.2105/AJPH.2015.302773

Evo i NYT članka koji ovo izlaže u lejmen trmzu:



Why You Can’t Lose Weight on a Diet

SIX years after dropping an average of 129 pounds on the TV program “The Biggest Loser,” a new study reports, the participants were burning about 500 fewer calories a day than other people their age and size. This helps explain why they had regained 70 percent of their lost weight since the show’s finale. The diet industry reacted defensively, arguing that the participants had lost weight too fast or ate the wrong kinds of food — that diets do work, if you pick the right one.
But this study is just the latest example of research showing that in the long run dieting is rarely effective, doesn’t reliably improve health and does more harm than good. There is a better way to eat.
The root of the problem is not willpower but neuroscience. Metabolic suppression is one of several powerful tools that the brain uses to keep the body within a certain weight range, called the set point. The range, which varies from person to person, is determined by genes and life experience. When dieters’ weight drops below it, they not only burn fewer calories but also produce more hunger-inducing hormones and find eating more rewarding.
The brain’s weight-regulation system considers your set point to be the correct weight for you, whether or not your doctor agrees. If someone starts at 120 pounds and drops to 80, her brain rightfully declares a starvation state of emergency, using every method available to get that weight back up to normal. The same thing happens to someone who starts at 300 pounds and diets down to 200, as the “Biggest Loser” participants discovered.
This coordinated brain response is a major reason that dieters find weight loss so hard to achieve and maintain. For example, men with severe obesity have only one chance in 1,290 of reaching the normal weight range within a year; severely obese women have one chance in 677. A vast majority of those who beat the odds are likely to end up gaining the weight back over the next five years. In private, even the diet industry agrees that weight loss is rarely sustained. A report for members of the industry stated: “In 2002, 231 million Europeans attempted some form of diet. Of these only 1 percent will achieve permanent weight loss.”
The specific “Biggest Loser” diet plan is probably not to blame. A previous study found similar metabolic suppression in people who had lost weight and kept it off for up to six years. Whether weight is lost slowly or quickly has no effect on later regain. Likewise — despite endless debate about the relative value of different approaches — in head-to-head comparisons, diet plans that provide the same calories through different types of food lead to similar weight loss and regain.
As a neuroscientist, I’ve read hundreds of studies on the brain’s ability to fight weight loss. I also know about it from experience. For three decades, starting at age 13, I lost and regained the same 10 or 15 pounds almost every year. On my most serious diet, in my late 20s, I got down to 125 pounds, 30 pounds below my normal weight. I wanted (unwisely) to lose more, but I got stuck. After several months of eating fewer than 800 calories a day and spending an hour at the gym every morning, I hadn’t lost another ounce. When I gave up on losing and switched my goal to maintaining that weight, I started gaining instead.
I was lucky to end up back at my starting weight instead of above it. After about five years, 41 percent of dieters gain back more weight than they lost. Long-term studies show dieters are more likely than non-dieters to become obese over the next one to 15 years. That’s true in men and women, across ethnic groups, from childhood through middle age. The effect is strongest in those who started in the normal weight range, a group that includes almost half of the female dieters in the United States.
Some experts argue that instead of dieting leading to long-term weight gain, the relationship goes in the other direction: People who are genetically prone to gain weight are more likely to diet. To test this idea, in a 2012 study, researchers followed over 4,000 twins aged 16 to 25. Dieters were more likely to gain weight than their non-dieting identical twins, suggesting that dieting does indeed increase weight gain even after accounting for genetic background. The difference in weight gain was even larger between fraternal twins, so dieters may also have a higher genetic tendency to gain. The study found that a single diet increased the odds of becoming overweight by a factor of two in men and three in women. Women who had gone on two or more diets during the study were five times as likely to become overweight.
The causal relationship between diets and weight gain can also be tested by studying people with an external motivation to lose weight. Boxers and wrestlers who diet to qualify for their weight classes presumably have no particular genetic predisposition toward obesity. Yet a 2006 study found that elite athletes who competed for Finland in such weight-conscious sports were three times more likely to be obese by age 60 than their peers who competed in other sports.
To test this idea rigorously, researchers could randomly assign people to worry about their weight, but that is hard to do. One program took the opposite approach, though, helping teenage girls who were unhappy with their bodies to become less concerned about their weight. In a randomized trial, the eBody Project, an online program to fight eating disorders by reducing girls’ desire to be thin, led to less dieting and also prevented future weight gain. Girls who participated in the program saw their weight remain stable over the next two years, while their peers without the intervention gained a few pounds.
WHY would dieting lead to weight gain? First, dieting is stressful. Calorie restriction produces stress hormones, which act on fat cells to increase the amount of abdominal fat. Such fat is associated with medical problems like diabetes and heart disease, regardless of overall weight.
Second, weight anxiety and dieting predict later binge eating, as well as weight gain. Girls who labeled themselves as dieters in early adolescence were three times more likely to become overweight over the next four years. Another study found that adolescent girls who dieted frequently were 12 times more likely than non-dieters to binge two years later.
My repeated dieting eventually caught up with me, as this research would predict. When I was in graduate school and under a lot of stress, I started binge eating. I would finish a carton of ice cream or a box of saltines with butter, usually at 3 a.m. The urge to keep eating was intense, even after I had made myself sick. Fortunately, when the stress eased, I was able to stop. At the time, I felt terrible about being out of control, but now I know that binge eating is a common mammalian response to starvation.
Much of what we understand about weight regulation comes from studies of rodents, whose eating habits resemble ours. Mice and rats enjoy the same wide range of foods that we do. When tasty food is plentiful, individual rodents gain different amounts of weight, and the genes that influence weight in people have similar effects in mice. Under stress, rodents eat more sweet and fatty foods. Like us, both laboratory and wild rodents have become fatter over the past few decades.
In the laboratory, rodents learn to binge when deprivation alternates with tasty food — a situation familiar to many dieters. Rats develop binge eating after several weeks consisting of five days of food restriction followed by two days of free access to Oreos. Four days later, a brief stressor leads them to eat almost twice as many Oreos as animals that received the stressor but did not have their diets restricted. A small taste of Oreos can induce deprived animals to binge on regular chow, if nothing else is available. Repeated food deprivation changes dopamine and other neurotransmitters in the brain that govern how animals respond to rewards, which increases their motivation to seek out and eat food. This may explain why the animals binge, especially as these brain changes can last long after the diet is over.
In people, dieting also reduces the influence of the brain’s weight-regulation system by teaching us to rely on rules rather than hunger to control eating. People who eat this way become more vulnerable to external cues telling them what to eat. In the modern environment, many of those cues were invented by marketers to make us eat more, like advertising, supersizing and the all-you-can-eat buffet. Studies show that long-term dieters are more likely to eat for emotional reasons or simply because food is available. When dieters who have long ignored their hunger finally exhaust their willpower, they tend to overeat for all these reasons, leading to weight gain.
Even people who understand the difficulty of long-term weight loss often turn to dieting because they are worried about health problems associated with obesity like heart disease and diabetes. But our culture’s view of obesity as uniquely deadly is mistaken. Low fitness, smoking, high blood pressure, low income and loneliness are all better predictors of early death than obesity. Exercise is especially important: Data from a 2009 study showed that low fitness is responsible for 16 percent to 17 percent of deaths in the United States, while obesity accounts for only 2 percent to 3 percent, once fitness is factored out. Exercise reduces abdominal fat and improves health, even without weight loss. This suggests that overweight people should focus more on exercising than on calorie restriction.

[Petronije]

Priznajem da nisam sve pročitao ali jesam pretrčao i rekao bih da mi se lično iskustvo i citirano slažu. Pre par godina, kada sam preterao sa pivom i testom i baš se usvinjio, doterao sam se za jednu sezonu (-14kg, od proleća do kraja jeseni) redovnim trčanjem, 3-4 puta nedeljno po 3 km (3 kruga u narodnoj bašti u Pančevu, trim staza, hladovina, zelenilo), 30-40 minuta po treningu, smešno. Korigovao sam unos piva i testa ali nikakve dijete, samo sam prestao da se prežderavam.

[tomat]

Korigovao sam unos piva i testa ali nikakve dijete, samo sam prestao da se prežderavam.

nije li i to dijeta, mislim prestanak sa prežderavanjem?

mislim, po meni je i prežderavanje dijeta, u širem smislu.

[Meho Krljic]

Mislim da je kod Petronija ključna ta kombinacija smanjenja unosa kalorične hrane i povećanja fizičke aktivnosti te da sama od sebe takva dijeta ne bi dala takve rezultate a svakako ne tom brzinom.

[tomat]

pa uvek je kombinacija, koliko trošiš toliko treba da jedeš (ili bolje obrnuto). dijeta je jednostavna, samo treba da napraviš deficit kalorija *češe se po šlaufu*

[Dybuk]

Fizicka aktivnost (vezbanje) bez smanjanja unosa kalorija isto ne donosi rezultat. U sustini, uvek moras trositi vise nego sto unosis, da bi rezultata bilo. Nema mrsavljenja bez malo gladovanja *(what tomat said!)* 

[Petronije]

Ma kakva dijeta, ždrao sam za dvoje a pio minimum 2-3 piva dnevno, nekad i više. Kad sam počeo da treniram, kao da mi se potreba za hranom smanjila, nisam više bio toliko gladan. Možda je to i neki moj umišljaj, jer bi trebalo da bude suprotno. Nisam mogao da jedem pre trčanja jer onda ne mogu da trčim, a pošto sam trčao uveče, posle mi je prijala lagana hrana, voće, keks, neke semenke. Pre toga sam probao neke redukcije hrane bez trčanja, rezultat 0.

[mac]

Može i bez trčanja, ali moraš da gladuješ. Mora stomak konstantno da bude prazan i da te boli od gladi. Postoje ljudi koji nisu spremni na bol, i beže od boli, i takvi ljudi ne mogu da izgube kilograme bez fizičke aktivnosti.

[Meho Krljic]

Plus, naravno, nije ni zgodno za želudac da baš nema šta da radi sve vreme 

[Dybuk]

Prvenstveno, gladovanje nije lako i prava je borba sa osnovnim instinktima i potrebama organizma. Ja vec dugo, recimo, nisam spremna niti voljna da gladujem radi korekcije kilograma.

Ipak, fizicka aktivnost je neophodna da ne bi doslo do jo-jo efekta, stalna aktivnost, kao zivotni stil, i zdravije je, lepse oblikujes telo i odrzavas tonus misica. Meni je sve osim duze setnje pravo mucenje, ali dobro, neko moze i voli da trci, ide na razne treninge itd. More power to them.

Valja napomenuti da se praksa "ne jesti nista posle 6-7 uvece" kod mnogih ljudi koje znam pokazala uspesnom.

[Biki]

Vrlo jednostavno. Pogledas koliki ti je imput a koliki autput. Ako vise unosis nego sto trosis to mora negde da se talozi. Nemam sad bas puno vremena da pisem ali u sustini ako se redovno vezba + vodi racuna sta i koliko se jede ne bi trebalo da ima problema. Meni pomaze fitbit, narocito ona opcija koja te podseca da svakog sata treba biti fizicki aktivan. Kad odem u gym na amt masnu ili biciklu za cardio i vidim koliko puno treba da se potrosi recimo dve palacinke, sledeci put cu bolje da razmislim i pojedem neku vocku. Po mom misljenju borba protiv gojaznosti je vazna iz zdravstvenih vise nego iz estetskih razloga.

[Black swan]

nisam debeo al mi je stomak velik
znam od čega je od KRUHA ili ti ga lebca

solucija je manje kruha i više kretanja
ali i genetika igra ulogu... stomak nam je u obitelji

[Son of Man]

A šta fali bit debeo?

Da viš kad naiđe baja od 125kg i 195cm kako se svi sklanjaju i zaziru...nema većeg gušta od tog.

[Son of Man]

Mož da treniraš u vidu trčanja i malo vežbi, al ne treba ti ni to ako imaš nož ili neko sečivo, uostalom u svakom kafiću imaš pikslu koja otvara lubanje pa ti ne treba ni nož.

Naravno, zajebavam se, vegetarijanstvo je najbolji način da se skine ta kilaža...i na tome upravo radim 

[Labudan]

Доручак пождери сам, ручак пождери с пријатељем а вечеру дај непријатељу

Парафраза арапске пословице

[Dybuk]

Super je vegetarijanstvo ali raw ishrana je jos efektnija.

Opet znam ljude koji su presli na vegetarijansku ishranu, pa su se u prvo vreme ugojili od testa.

[Labudan]

Тијесто треба укинути законом

Радул хоће да опорезује газиране сокове хаха

[Petronije]

Testo/peciva ali iz pekare. Neće ništa da ti fali od domaćih kiflica i pite ako ne jedeš ceo pleh za večeru i sl. I burek stavljam na whitelist, za doručak normalno, umro bih bez bureka.

[Dybuk]

Bato, leb je osnovna ishrana vecine naroda, sta ce siromasni da jedu ako im se dijeta ne bazira na testu?

Pekare jesu zlo, ali uzmi cenu npr bureka ili nekog drugog lisnatog testa i cenu fenci salate (vec pripremljene) u prodavnicama, razlika je ogromna. Ko moze da se zasiti jabukom, sargarepom i sl, blago njemu, ali kad nemas vremena, gladan si, i imas limitiran buzet, normalno ces prvo u pekaru.

ed da ne bude da pravim nefer poredjenja, umesto salate moze vesalica, pljeska, (skupo!) belo meso, sta god sa rostilja...sve skuplje od bureka

[Petronije]

Mene ta lisnata testa iz pekare nikad nisu zasitila na duže, i uopšte mi nisu ukusna. Šiptarski burek s mesom ne računam, kad ga omlatim ujutru znam da sam miran do ručka.

[Dybuk]

Burek nisam pojela sto godina, a kad sam ga jela, obicno bih uzela sa sirom. Meni je sarajevski dobar (on izgleda kao pita savijaca, rajt?) U Cg sam jela neki u obliku potkovice(onako uvijeno), super testo! Ove trouglove ne volim bas.

[Petronije]

Najviše volim taj uvijen ali kad je dobar, dobar je i trouglasti. Problem je što se teško nalazi burek da valja, ali stalno, a ne da gledam u pasulj da li je bio vikend pa su podgrevali ili je majstor na odmoru pa ga menja mali što nosi gajbice. Ne znam, burek, em je jeftin, em je meni preukusan, a ne mirišem testo baš nešto. Ne ume svako da ga napravi, kada bi me neko naučio da pravim jeo bih ga svaki dan

[Petronije]

I tako smo od priče o gojaznosti otišli na priču o hrani

[Dybuk]

Hahah, vidi stvarno!!!

Prosto, nacin zivota + dostupnost zasitne brze hrane + cena brze hrane na koju je vecina ljudi upucena utice i na gojaznost.

Ipak, ja ni kod nas ni ovde gotovo da nisam videla morbidno debele ljude, covece, ovde skoro da nema gojaznih, ne znam koja je njihova tajna, s obzirom na to da se socijalni zivot vrti oko hrane, vina, ruckova, vecera itd.

[Petronije]

Pa Francuzi su valjda poznati po tome da jedu iz polupraznih tanjira. Prosečna količina hrane koja se servira tamo se ne može porediti sa istom u Nemačkoj npr. ili u Srbiji. Stalno slušam kuknjavu izgladnelih Srba odande.

[Labudan]

Па шницла је јефтинија од бурека а свако може да је испржи, чак су постојала истраживања да сиромашнији више трошили на храну

Наравно, првенствено сам мислио на пекарске подвале, бурек је свакако друга ствар

Но, оне кифле с виршлом, џемом, кремом, ужас... лиснато тијесто

[Dybuk]

  poluprazni tanjiri u fensi restoranima, ali uvek cemo imati kebab

E ne znam, fino se jede ovde, ali u principu verovatno manje jedu kolicinski iako cesto/stalno jedu. Mozda je i hrana laganija. Ili je bar utisak takav. Ali da su mrsavi - jesu. Trebalo je da odem u USA

Bato, da przis sniclu usput, na ulici? Vecina ljudi dosta vremena provodi vani, kad si kod kuce, to je druga stvar.

[Biki]

Meho uspela sam da procitam oba ova istrazivanja koja si citirao. Rekla bih da u prvom nedostaje do sta informacija. Kao na primer: koji su konkretno ti weigh management programi , koliko cesto su ljudi vezbali, koje vrste vezbi, o kojim dijetama se radi. Takodje u pitanju je izgleda na pocetku cross -sectional study koja se pretvoriopretvorila u longitudinal study koja koristi samo jednu variablu BMI (body mass index) iz elektronskih recorda. Mi nigde ne vidimo podatke o tome koliko su ispitanici bili compliant kada je u pitanju preporuceno vezbanje i ishrana.

[Meho Krljic]

Plus, body mass index je uglavnom napušten od pre par godina kao pouzdan indikator zdravlja/ problema sa težinom. Tako da, kao i svaku drugu studiju u izolaciji, i ovu treba uzeti sa zrnom soli, naravno. Meni je to vipe bio plagvort da se otvori topik na temu koja je bitna za ovaj trenutak naše povijesne zbiljnosti.

I već ima rezultata, Dibučica gore ispravno postavlja tezu koja se već i u svetu godinama podvlači kao element nove stvarnosti:

Nekada su bogati bili gojazniji a siromašni mršaviji jer su ovi prvi mogli da priušte jaču hranu, ali danas bogati jedu brokoli i ribu-list a sirotinja cepa jeftinu hranu iz supermarketa punu šećera i masti pa su ovi prvi vitki i lepi a ovi drugi sve deblji.

[Biki]

Доручак пождери сам, ручак пождери с пријатељем а вечеру дај непријатељу

Парафраза арапске пословице

Ovo je nesto sto sam slusala od malena, a sto je nepoznato ili malo poznato coveku na zapadu. Ovde je vecera sve i svja. Dakle krkanje pa spavanje. Losa kombinacija.


Moj pokojni deda, koji je bio srpski seljak, je uvek govorio: deco, postoje tri bele smrti: so, secer i belo brasno. Ja sada u svojim cetrdesetim imam poviseni krvni pritisak i vec neko vreme vrlo pazljivo citam koliko sodijuma ima u onome sto kupujem. Skoro recimo za vreme posta, posto se ne pije  zivotinjsko mleko ja kupim neko mleko od badema u prodavnici. Ukusno je, onako mi je bas prijalo ujutru uz neke chia seeds i voce. Kad ne lezi vraze u istom pakovanju od 2l, ono je imalo 160 gr sodiuma per serviing, dok je soya mleko imalo 80gr, a kokos mleko samo 40gr. Tako sam presla na kokos mleko koje ima 4 puta manje sodijuma.
Tako je isto sa secerom. Ljudi kupuju stvari ne obracajuci paznju na to koliko secera tamo ima. A secer je #1 suspect kad je gojaznost u pitanju.

[mac]

Za one sa jeftinijim ulaznicama, sodium se kod nas zove natrijum.

[Labudan]

па ја и у ћевабџиници тражим шницлу у лепињи, заеби мљевено с гермом и содом бикарбоном, ако имаш среће па није самљевено и нешто што не би требало

Нпр тај Петронијев бурек,  да простите, да буде срећан што је ласица а не полни органи

Све у свему, може и банана да се купи, не мора брза храна

Наравно, ја то причам у начелу, ал бар знам да гријешим са пљеском сенфаром

[Biki]

@ mac
Nisam bas sigurna cemu to " sa jeftinijim ulaznicama". Svejedno hvala na ispravci/ prevodu. Mogao bi mozda za te sa "jeftinijim ulaznicama" -kako ih ti vidis prevedes i oba istrazivanja koje je naveo Meho, tek toliko da budes transparentan, hocu reci fer.

[Dybuk]

Bato, ja i ne jedem mleveno, nego ti je ta snicla skuplja od bureka, to je poenta.

tj, OVO

Nekada su bogati bili gojazniji a siromašni mršaviji jer su ovi prvi mogli da priušte jaču hranu, ali danas bogati jedu brokoli i ribu-list a sirotinja cepa jeftinu hranu iz supermarketa punu šećera i masti pa su ovi prvi vitki i lepi a ovi drugi sve deblji.

[mac]

To "za one sa jeftinijim ulaznicama" je moja glupa šala, za koju moraš da znaš Diznijev crtani u kome dva ragbi tima sačinjena od Šilja igraju, pa se prvo izvodi akcija za one sa skupljim ulaznicama, i to je pravi spektakl, a zatim se za one sa jeftinijim ulaznicama izvodi udarac, i tu vidiš samo najkraću moguću akciju, u kojoj se maltene niko nije ni pomerio. To mi je omiljeni uvod, koji koristim za najgluplje i najnepotrebnije primedbe.

[Petronije]

Ej, taj burek s' mesom, da citiram Ghoula, "to je moj križ", volim ga i kraj. Zameni meso šampinjonima, krompirom, sirom, zeljem, opet imaš kvalitetnu i ukusnu klopu za sitne novce. Zato i kažem da bih najviše  voleo da me neko nauči da pravim burek.

[Labudan]

Тај с готовим корама троугласти је бар лак, само слажеш, бираш и шта ћеш да ставиш у њега, а да сам правиш коре је смор...

[Dybuk]

Treba nam tema za burek!!!!

Ozbiljno gotove kore su bzv, samo uz odredjene cake i skilze to moze da lici na domace.

[Biki]

Ej, taj burek s' mesom, da citiram Ghoula, "to je moj križ", volim ga i kraj. Zameni meso šampinjonima, krompirom, sirom, zeljem, opet imaš kvalitetnu i ukusnu klopu za sitne novce. Zato i kažem da bih najviše  voleo da me neko nauči da pravim burek.

Evo ja cu da te naucim 

[Petronije]

Tič mi Biki, i biću ti večiti dužnik

[Labudan]

ja da razvlačim kore, možda u drugom životu!

ipak, i pored toga je bolji od kupovnog, još kad šibnem jogurt između kora, mmmmm

a zar pričati o bureku na topiku o gojaznosti nije ono baš posred srijede?

[Karl Rosman]

To "za one sa jeftinijim ulaznicama" je moja glupa šala, za koju moraš da znaš Diznijev crtani u kome dva ragbi tima sačinjena od Šilja igraju, pa se prvo izvodi akcija za one sa skupljim ulaznicama, i to je pravi spektakl, a zatim se za one sa jeftinijim ulaznicama izvodi udarac, i tu vidiš samo najkraću moguću akciju, u kojoj se maltene niko nije ni pomerio. To mi je omiljeni uvod, koji koristim za najgluplje i najnepotrebnije primedbe.

 

[klem]

ja volim da jedem sve što je nezdravo masno i ima puno kalorija pa tako imam veliki stomak slatkiši pizze čizburgeri
ali ima ona izreka ispod velikog brda veliki kukuruz

[Petronije]

ja da razvlačim kore, možda u drugom životu!

ipak, i pored toga je bolji od kupovnog, još kad šibnem jogurt između kora, mmmmm

a zar pričati o bureku na topiku o gojaznosti nije ono baš posred srijede?

Sledeći put kad budeš pravio seti se nas pa poslikaj malo postupak. Možeš i temu da otvoriš, da ne oftopikujemo ovde.

[Biki]

 


Stvarno topic o gojaznosti a mi o bureku

[lilit]

gojenje je posledica hronične inflamacije a dva najbitnija faktora koja dovode do inflamacije su (ne)adekvatna ishrana - prvenstveno šećer (saharoza = glukoza + galaktoza) u bilo kom obliku plus stres.
inflamacija krene vrlo podmuklo (imunski sistem ne voli kad ga previše akamo), javljaju se klasični simptomi kao kad fajtujemo mikrobe: vrućina, crvenilo kože i znojenje i ako tu ne stanemo već krenemo dalje, krljamo redom: kortizol, serotonin, leptin i insulin.

kortizol odlično reguliše stres, diže nam nivo šećera u krvi al suprimira imunski sistem što vodi do još jače inflamacije.
što veći kortizol, to manji serotonin.
nizak serotonin (tzv. happy hormon, odnosno neurotransmiter koji nam daje feeling da smo srećni i zadovoljni) nam dalje odmaže jer nas 1) tera da jedemo i 2) utiče nam na spavanje a poznato je da je premalo sna direktno proporcionalno povećanju kilaže.
leptin nam daje osećaj da smo siti. hronična inflamacija nam donese rezistenciju na leptin, što znači da taj leptin ne može da uđe u ćeliju i tako nije u mogućnosti da se u ćeliji veže za neke receptore koji će da pošalju signal centrali da se prestane s jelom.
na kraju dođemo do skrljanog metabolizma insulina i to je momenat u kom gubimo šansu da se rešimo kilograma bez rigorozne promene navika u ishrani.

sve u svemu, da parafraziram džona miltona: it's all biochemistry

gojazni ljudi imaju problem da razviju adekvatan imunski odgovor nakon vakcinacije, probleme da se izađe na kraj sa infekcijama, skloniji su kanceru, autoimunskim bolestima...
kardiovaskularne bolesti i dijabetes su još zlatni u odnosu na spektar bolesti posredovanih preaktiviranim imunskim sistemom.

o smanjenju sex drajva zbog smanjenja sex hormona kod gojaznih ljudi a što vodi u dalji stres i depresiju (što uzrokuje još intenzivnije papanje ogromnih količina čipsa posle ponoći) nekom drugom prilikom

[Biki]

Znaci Lilit ovom Cedi Medi dzaba sto mu ispod velikog brda veliki kukuruz 

[Biki]

http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/foods-that-fight-inflammation

[lilit]

Znaci Lilit ovom Cedi Medi dzaba sto mu ispod velikog brda veliki kukuruz 

hm, sad su možda jasniji neki topics...biću dobra i zaustaviću se na deponijskim srpskim manekenkama

[lilit]

http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/foods-that-fight-inflammation

treba biti oprezan sa količinama voća koje unosimo, fruktoza equals alkohol i to samo u EtOH posredovanim negativnim aspektima konzumacije: krlja jetru a ne opija