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DRUGA STRANA SVETA (prostor za potpuno ne-SF&F teme) => ISTORIJA, DRUŠTVO, POLITIKA, RELIGIJA... => Topic started by: Ghoul on 17-05-2003, 12:27:20

Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Ghoul on 17-05-2003, 12:27:20
(samo za Sigismundusa)

WEIRD SEX LAWS

1. In Lebanon, men are legally allowed to have sex with animals, but the animals must be female. Having sexual relations with a male animal is punishable by death.  :?

2. In Bahrain, a male doctor may legally examine a woman's genitals, but is prohibited from looking directly at them during the examination. He may only see their reflection in a mirror.  :oops:

3. Muslims are banned from looking at the genitals of a corpse. This also applies to undertakers; the sex organs of the deceased must be covered with a brick or piece of wood at all times.  :oops:

4. The penalty for masturbation in Indonesia is decapitation. :o  

5. There are men in Guam whose full time job is to travel the countryside and deflower young virgins, who pay them for the privilege of having sex for the first time...Reason: under Guam law, it is expressly forbidden for virgins to marry.  :)  :evil:  :)

6. In Hong Kong, a betrayed wife is legally allowed to kill her adulterous husband, but may only do so with her bare hands. The husband's lover, on the other hand, may be killed in any manner desired. :evil:

7. Topless saleswomen are legal in Liverpool, England--but only in tropical fish stores.  :idea:

8. In Cali, Colombia, a woman may only have sex with her husband, and the first time this happens, her mother must be in the room to witness the act.  :shock:  :P

9. In Santa Cruz, Bolivia, it is illegal for a man to have sex with a woman and her daughter at the same time. (This was a big enough problem that they had to pass a law?)  :(

10. In Maryland, it is illegal to sell condoms from vending machines with one exception: prophylactics may be dispensed from a
vending machine only "in places where alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on the premises." :x
 
Oral sex is still illegal in Massachusetts, though it's never enforced, of course. :lol:

 
In Texas(State Laws)
Up to a felony charge can be levied for promoting the use of, or owning more than six dildos.  :(  :(  :(

Homosexual behavior is a misdemeanor offense.  :lol:

Dallas:
It's illegal to possess realistic dildos.  :(

San Antonio:
It is illegal for both sexes to flirt or respond to flirtation using the eyes and/or hands. :P
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Black swan on 17-05-2003, 18:14:58
da smo u indoneziji davno bi me cap carap :cry:
Title: Re: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: DUNADAN on 19-05-2003, 04:51:07
Quote from: "ghoul"

5. There are men in Guam whose full time job is to travel the countryside and deflower young virgins, who pay them for the privilege of having sex for the first time...Reason: under Guam law, it is expressly forbidden for virgins to marry.  :)  :evil:  :)


kakav posao!!!
straight from Heaven!!!


Quote
6. In Hong Kong, a betrayed wife is legally allowed to kill her adulterous husband, but may only do so with her bare hands. The husband's lover, on the other hand, may be killed in any manner desired.


konachno
ko-nach-no!!!!

Quote
In Texas(State Laws)
Up to a felony charge can be levied for promoting the use of, or owning more than six dildos.


da pobacam onda one svoje da me ne kompromituju na sudu
Title: Re: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: phuzzy on 19-05-2003, 12:35:00
Quote from: "DUNADAN"
Quote from: "ghoul"

5. There are men in Guam whose full time job is to travel the countryside and deflower young virgins, who pay them for the privilege of having sex for the first time...Reason: under Guam law, it is expressly forbidden for virgins to marry.  :)  :evil:  :)


kakav posao!!!
straight from Heaven!!!


Ma pusti ti to "from heaven"... to je verovatno kao posao ginekologa, na svake 3 zgodne cice naleti ti 10 gnomova... a posto ti to posao, ne mozes da biras...  :P
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: sigismundus on 19-05-2003, 15:31:52
hvala, prijatelju, hvala. Bas si me nasmijao. Zanima me sta ce biti sa onom serijom DVD-ja, sto sam porucio. Pa tamo ce biti jos slike. Moracu, da uzmem koje pomirjevalo. Tabletku, znas. Zbog infarkta. Tika. taka, znas.

a ovde na poslu se ponekad salim sa mladim djevojkama, kako je to nezgodno, sto sam vec star i znate, ono ne smijem vise raditi. Uvek se koja nova pobuni. A ja  ko iz topa. A moje srce? Moja tika-taka? Pa zar hocete, da dozivim infarkt. Pa da idem na intezivu. Imajte milosti. Znate, da ja u svojim godinama ni zenskog grudnjaka ne smem, da vidim. Kamoli gacice. A znate, kako je to neugodno na selu, kad se to visi pred kucama. Pa, moram da okolo hodam zatvorenih ociju, sa dlanom pred nosom. I onda se spoticem po neravnom terenu. I upadam u gnoj. Jako neugodno, je to.
Uvijek je dosta smeha.

sigismundus
Title: Re: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: SANdMAN on 19-05-2003, 16:13:31
Quote from: "phuzzy"
Quote from: "DUNADAN"
Quote from: "ghoul"

5. There are men in Guam whose full time job is to travel the countryside and deflower young virgins, who pay them for the privilege of having sex for the first time...Reason: under Guam law, it is expressly forbidden for virgins to marry.  :)  :evil:  :)


kakav posao!!!
straight from Heaven!!!


Ma pusti ti to "from heaven"... to je verovatno kao posao ginekologa, na svake 3 zgodne cice naleti ti 10 gnomova... a posto ti to posao, ne mozes da biras...  :P



phuzzy, vidi se da nikad sa devicama ili piletinom nisi imo posla. uh, kad krene da ti djipa..  :x  :cry:
Title: Re: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: phuzzy on 19-05-2003, 16:19:41
Quote from: "SANdMAN"
Quote from: "phuzzy"

Ma pusti ti to "from heaven"... to je verovatno kao posao ginekologa, na svake 3 zgodne cice naleti ti 10 gnomova... a posto ti to posao, ne mozes da biras...  :P


phuzzy, vidi se da nikad sa devicama ili piletinom nisi imo posla. uh, kad krene da ti djipa..  :x  :cry:


Huhm? Kakve veze ima devičanstvo/pilićnost sa činjenicom da, bila devica ili ne, svako malo pa naleti neka gadna.  Mislim, zamisli da moraš da razdevičiš nešto što izgleda ovako:  :P  ?  Eh?  :wink:
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: SANdMAN on 19-05-2003, 16:24:35
mozda vec jesam, ko ce to zna. treba samo biti dovoljno pijan..  :!:
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Black swan on 19-05-2003, 20:41:50
Quote from: "sigismundus"
sa dlanom pred nosom


uh učini mi se
dilanom pred nosom
 :x
Title: Re: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 21-05-2003, 02:32:21
Quote from: "ghoul"
2. In Bahrain, a male doctor may legally examine a woman's genitals, but is prohibited from looking directly at them during the examination. He may only see their reflection in a mirror.  :oops:


Ovo me podseti na pochetak Rushdijeve "Dece ponoci" gde deda glavnog junaka, inache mlad lekar, upoznaje buducu zhenu tako shto je lechi od raznih boljki, ali kroz charshav sa rupom u sredini, kako bi video samo "bolni" deo tela, a ne total.   :lol:  


Quote from: "ghoul"
8. In Cali, Colombia, a woman may only have sex with her husband, and the first time this happens, her mother must be in the room to witness the act.  :shock:  :P


A "strndzhanje"  kod Vlaha?

Quote from: "ghoul"
9San Antonio:
It is illegal for both sexes to flirt or respond to flirtation using the eyes and/or hands. :P


Slobodno recite da sam zaostala, ali ako iskljuchimo ochi i ruke SHTA PREOSTAJE? Mislim za flertovanje, ne na nastavak.  :lol:
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 21-05-2003, 02:37:14
Quote from: "SANdMAN"
mozda vec jesam, ko ce to zna. treba samo biti dovoljno pijan..  :!:


"Ne postoji ruzhna zhena - postoji samo premalo vodke"  :)
Title: Re: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: DUNADAN on 24-05-2003, 15:07:53
Quote from: "Unicorn"
Quote from: "ghoul"
9San Antonio:
It is illegal for both sexes to flirt or respond to flirtation using the eyes and/or hands. :P


Slobodno recite da sam zaostala, ali ako iskljuchimo ochi i ruke SHTA PREOSTAJE? Mislim za flertovanje, ne na nastavak.  :lol:


a shta bi sa vrckanjem guzom i prekrshtanjem nogu a la Sharon Stone...
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 26-05-2003, 23:39:37
Hmm! Ja to nekako ne ubrajam u flert vec u zavodjenje, sto je tvrdja varijanta istog. A i praceno je znachajnim pogledima. Ma, nema flerta bez upotrebe ochiju, pogleda.  :o
Ili sam sve ove godine zhivela u zabludi  :shock: , a nameravam tako i dalje.
B.t.w. jesi li chitala Dezmonda Morisa - Golog majmuna, Otkrivanje choveka kroz gestove i ponashanje, Intimno ponashanje...?
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: DUNADAN on 27-05-2003, 02:39:14
nop
ali ti jesi :lol:
prichaj...ima l neshto interesantno?
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Ghoul on 27-05-2003, 03:02:40
GOLI MAJMUN je jedna od najpametnijih knjiga koje sam ikad pročitao ( u smislu, koliko toga novog i znanja vrednog sam u njoj otkrio), a i INTIMNO PONAŠANJE je vrlo vredna i korisna knjiga.

U obema Moris opisuje čoveka pokušavajući (prilično uspešno) da zauzme objektivnu distancu, kao da opisuje životinjsku vrstu kojoj ne pripada, i da tako prikaže njene osobine. Takođe, u obema možeš da vidiš u kojoj meri su i neke 'više' odlike čoveka, za koje veruje da su samo za njega karakteristične, u stvari bliske/slične/iste kao kod naših životinjskih srodnika.

Što je najbitnije, sve je to opisano jasnim i čitkim, ali ne za-debile/uvredljivim jezikom, pa ih preporučujem svima koji bi da otkriju zašto se ljudi ponašaju baš tako kako se ponašaju (u intimnosti, i inače).
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 28-05-2003, 15:35:08
Preteche me ghoul, ali sve shto je napisao o pomenutim knjigama apsolutno podrzhavam. Otkrivanje choveka kroz ponashanje i gestove je "slikovnica", ali veoma ozbiljna i korisna. Mene je zapanjilo: 1) saznanje o tome koliko smo primati i 2) koliko ima bioloskog, potpuno nezavisnog od kulture i pripadnosti narodu/grupi naroda u gestovima, govoru tela i ponashanju ljudi 3) koliko nismo svesni svega toga (ili, da se ogradim, koliko ja nisam bila svesna toga). Od navedenih knjiga nisam prochitala Golog majmuna, pa ovom prilikom molim one koji imaju knjigu da mi je daju da prochitam (brzo chitam,  chuvam knjige i nemam obichaj da ih otudjujem  :lol: ).
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 28-05-2003, 15:54:15
E, da!
Zaboravih da napomenem da se pomenute knjige mogu svrstati u oblast etologije, nauke o ponashanju al* sa bioloshke tachke gledishta. Drugi poznati etolog je Konrad Lorenc, ali se njegov pristup ponashanju zhivotinja ne da uporediti sa pristupom Dezmonda Morisa ponashanju ljudi, kao bioloshke vrste. Preciznije, mislim da je Moris mnogo ozbiljniji. Moj favorit iz Otkrivanja choveka kroz ponashanje i gestove je deo o strahovima (od pauka, insekata, zmija i ostalih gmizavih stvorova), koji se ne mogu povezati ni sa razumom ni sa urodjenim strahovima, a ukazuju na ono sisarsko i bubojedsko  :lol: u nashem poreklu, te na prastaru kompeticiju sisara sa gmizavcima i insektima. To je josh jedan razlog zbog kojeg je film Muva tako zastrashujuc.
Deo o sekvenci prilikom udvaranja ("muvanja") je takodje VEOMA zanimljiv, al* nije za ovaj forum  :) .
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Ghoul on 28-05-2003, 18:29:12
Ja sam svojevremeno, kao poslednji fanatik, GOLOG MAJMUNA čitao u čitaonici Narodne Bibl. u Nišu, pošto imaju samo 1 komad i nije za izdavanje. To su izdali neki hrvati '70ih i nikad i nigde, ni na jednom sajmu knjiga ili u nekoj antikvarnici, nisam je više video...

INTIMNO PONAŠANJE imam, ali to čini mi se nije tako retka knjiga.

Ne znam šta zameraš Lorencu, O AGRESIJI je takođe jedna od najbitnijih knjiga s kojima sam se ikad sreo. On, čini mi se, važi za podjednako veliko ako ne i veće ime od Morisa u toj oblasti.

Kuriozitet: D.Moris je kreirao 'majmunski' jezik gestova kojim se koriste likovi u filmu RAT ZA VATRU Ž.Ž.Anoa. Njegovo ime je na špici.
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 28-05-2003, 22:10:15
Eee! Nisam znala to za "majmunski" jezik.
Ne zameram ja nishta Lorencu ("Govorio je sa zhivotinjama" mi je bila jedna od drazhih dechijih knjiga), nego biolozi koji su malo verziraniji od mene po pitanju biologije ponashanja. Zameraju mu shto sve ponashanje pokushava da objasni inprintingom (to je ono kad tek izlegli pachici slede najblizhu odraslu jedinku bila ona majka-patka ili ne  :) ). Kazhu da narochito kod sisara ima dosta nauchenog ponashanja, tj. da nije sve ponashanje urodjeno, genetski determinisano (kao kod pachica). Lorenc jeste nobelovac, ali nije neprikosnoveni autoritet. Sad sam malo zaglibila u biologiju, ali moram da pomenem (to su zanimljive stvari i za nebiologe): postoji u teoriji evolucije "struja" koja tvrdi da ponashanje mozhe biti jedan od faktora evolucije, pa navode primere kako su majmuni nauchili da chiste hranu (zrnevlje) od kamenchica (tako shto je ubace u morsku vodu, pa onda pokupe ono shto ostane da pluta), pa je to ponashanje pochelo da se "nasledjuje". Isto je sa onim majmunima u Japanu, shto se greju u toplim izvorima. Necu da ulazim u to koliko su u pravu ili "u krivu". Mislim, na evolucioniste, ne na majmune  :lol:
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Ghoul on 28-05-2003, 22:31:21
E, Unicorn, odosmo skroz od weird sex laws, ali nema veze:

sad si me asocirala na onu teoriju o morfogenetskom polju – ono kad lokalni pripadnici neke vrste nauče neki novi fazon, a onda ubrzo i njihovi geografski udaljeni srodnici steknu istu sposobnost.
Znaš li nešto o tome?
Ima li nekih novih saznanja o tom fenomenu (ako je uopšte autentičan i dovoljno ozbiljno i čvrsto naučno potvrđen?)
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: DUNADAN on 28-05-2003, 23:07:19
da
davno sam slushala o tom hm, fenomenu.
interesuje me koliko je to provereno i koje je objashnjenje dato.
unicorn ako znash, da se ne raspitujem po faxu :)

Quote
Moj favorit iz Otkrivanja choveka kroz ponashanje i gestove je deo o strahovima (od pauka, insekata, zmija i ostalih gmizavih stvorova), koji se ne mogu povezati ni sa razumom ni sa urodjenim strahovima, a ukazuju na ono sisarsko i bubojedsko u nashem poreklu, te na prastaru kompeticiju sisara sa gmizavcima i insektima


:)
znam za kompeticiju sa reptilima.
ovo za insekte mi je nepoznato.
anyway, jednom sam upala u interesantnu diskusiju gde su mene i drugaricu (obe sa biologije), probala dva psihologa (najbolja drugarica i njen momak) da ubede da je strah od zmija jedan od primarnih strahova.

budalashtina.
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Lurd on 28-05-2003, 23:45:11
Pa zar nisu primarni strahovi visina, buka i zmije?
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: iNCUBUs on 29-05-2003, 02:08:12
Quote from: "Monsinjor Lurdusami"
Pa zar nisu primarni strahovi visina, buka i zmije?


Hmmm, cini mi se da u primarne spada i strah od gubitka ravnoteze (tla pod nogama?) ili neka varijacija na temu...
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 29-05-2003, 02:35:30
Chula sam za taj fenomen, ali ne znam nishta vishe o tome. Mislim da je sve pochelo sa vitalistom i embriologom chijeg imena ne mogu da se setim,  koji je tvrdio da morfogenetska polja u chijem je korenu neka "zhivotna sila" upravljaju razvojem embriona. Tu zhivotnu silu nikad nije uspeo da dokazhe, a kao vitalistu su ga odmah iskljuchili iz ozbiljnog prihvatanja. Kasnije se ideja "povampirila". Ja neshto ne mogu da sebi objasnim na koju foru bi ta polja funkcionisala. Mora biti da neka komunikacija postoji. Danas se pojmovi o tome shta je jedinka i shta je populacija bitno menjaju. Tipichan je primer borovih shuma gde su pojedinachna stabla u mikorizi (vrsta simbioze) sa gljivama, a gljive CELE shume funkcionishu kao jedan organizam i u kontinuitetu su. Slichno tvrde da se deshava sa populacijama mrava. E, sad, ova dva primera imaju jasnu chinjenicu komunikacije medju populacijama. Shto nije uvek sluchaj kad se pominju morfogenetska polja. Nisam sklona bilo kojoj vrsti vitalizma, ali mislim da bi eventualno magnetno polje Zemlje moglo imati mnogo veci uticaj na zhive organizme nego shto mi mislimo (barem kad dolazi do promene magnetnih polova). Nazhalost, ne vidim nachin kako bi ono moglo uticati na UCHENJE koje je visha nervna delatnost, AKO je ovde uopshte rech o uchenju. Mozhda se radi o genetski determinisanom ponashanju koje se ranije nije ispoljavalo - trebaju mi konkretni primeri.
Shto se strahova tiche, kol`ko se secam gimnazijske psihologije, urodjeni strahovi NISU strah od zmija i strah od visine, ali strah od jakih i iznenadnih zvukova i strah od pomeranja podloge jesu (ima ih josh, al` se ne secam koji su). Moris tvrdi (i navodi rezultate istrazhivanja) da se strah od zmija razvija i da je najcheshci kod dece od 4 do 9 godina (nema veze sa polom). Kad se zadrzhi do odraslog doba, obichno je povezan sa zabludama o tome da su zmije ljigave i hladne. Moram da priznam da sam kao dete imala jednom panichan strah od "zmijice" koju zapravo nisam ni videla (znam da je bio panichan jer sam imala "crnu rupu" u pamcenju) i to bash u periodu koji navodi Moris. Sada se zmija ne plashim (u granicama razuma, sigurno ne bih vijala mambu samo da joj konstatujem boju ochiju  :lol: ). Strah od pauka i insekata po meni vishe ima veze sa sisarskim strahom od naglih pokreta, poshto se oni brzo krecu. A shto se kompeticije sisara i insekata tiche, pa, insekti vladaju svetom vec milionima godina - mi smo novajlije u evoluciji.
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Milosh on 29-05-2003, 02:53:38
Pa, to je ona teza o bioloski pripremljenim drazima za koje se lakse vezuje strah, ali to nije isto sto i primarni strahovi kao sto su: buka, gubitak podloge...

Seligmen je razvio teoriju fobija po kojima se za drazi koje su evoluciji coveka predstavljale opasnost za opstanak, one za koje se strah lakse vezuje. On tu navodi mrak, visinu, grmljavinu, neke vrste zivotinja (posebno male, a cesto opasne) itd.
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: DUNADAN on 29-05-2003, 03:51:36
Quote
A shto se kompeticije sisara i insekata tiche, pa, insekti vladaju svetom vec milionima godina - mi smo novajlije u evoluciji.


sisari i insekti ne zauzimaju istu ekoloshku nishu.
kako bi onda mogli biti kompetitivni?

a o fenomenu da geografski udaljene populacije iste vrste na neki nachin komuniciraju sam prichala sa drugarom pre par godina.
pitacu ga da l se seca :)

shto se tiche fobija od izvesnih zivotinja, to nikad necu razumeti.
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 29-05-2003, 17:26:31
E, i ja sam danas razgovarala sa jednim kolegom o tome. On kazhe da je chitao rad u kojem su izneti rezultati istrazhivanja nachina na koji bi jedinke na udaljenim krajevima populacije mogle da komuniciraju. Registrovani su talasi slichni zvuchnim, ali manje frekvencije i prodorni, koje emituju jedinke u cilju prenoshenja informacije (o opasnosti, naprimer) udaljenim jedinkama ili drugim populacijama. Problem je u tome shto je to otkriveno kod biljaka, a zhivotinje su ipak pokretljivije  :) i drugachije. U svakom sluchaju, postoji neka komunikacija koja nije hemijske prirode (poznato je da se komunikacija kod biljaka uglavnom odvija preko hemijskih signala). Da li je to morfogenetsko polje, ma shta to bilo, ili neshto drugo - to je vec pitanje za diskusiju.
Zar neki biljojedi-sisari ne kompetiraju sa nekim biljojedima-insektima za hranu? Verovatno da si ti u pravu, Dunadan - ja sam "molekularna" i ekologija mi nije jacha strana.
A shto se urodjenih strahova tiche, ima u Morisu jedan sjajan deo koji opisuje i pokushava da objasni reakciju primata kad se uplashe (ne mora nuzhno da bude urodjeni strah). Deshava se povijanje tela unapred, uvlachenje glave medju ramena i zatvaranje ochiju, a sve to je potpuno instinktivno (kao kod ljudi koji se plashe grmljavine). Pritom, sve se mozhe objasniti refleksom u cilju zashtite od povrede, ali zhmurenje etolozi nikako ne mogu da objasne (chemu sluzhi i otkud potiche), jer se deshava chak i onda kada strah izazove neshto shto ne ugrozhava ochi i glavu.
Jedan od najjachih urodjenih strahova je strah od izmicanja podloge. To stvarno mozhe da predje u panichan strah, kada se racionalno ponashanje sasvim eliminishe. Chak i kad mozhe da se kontrolishe ponashanje, adrenalinska reakcija (lupanje srca, ubrzano disanje, shirenje zenica...) je neizbezhna. Urodjeni strahovi i adrenalinska reakcija koja ih prati se obilato koriste u horor filmovima, a popularnost horor filmova mogla bi se objasniti i chinjenicom da adrenalinska reakcija izazvana nekim urodjenim strahom veoma lichi na adrenalinsku reakciju prilikom uzbudjenja (izmedju ostalog i seksualnog)  :lol: Uslovljavanje je zanimljiva stvar. Ali to je vec tema za psihologe.
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: S. on 29-05-2003, 19:09:32
Quote from: "Unicorn"
... ali zhmurenje etolozi nikako ne mogu da objasne (chemu sluzhi i otkud potiche), jer se deshava chak i onda kada strah izazove neshto shto ne ugrozhava ochi i glavu.


Tsk, tsk, tsk ... zaboravila si Vodic i savrsene naocare koje te stite od opasnosti tako sto na najmanji znak nevolje, potpuno pocrne? :lol:

Cini mi se da ima materijala razmiljati u tom pravcu, ne znam.
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 30-05-2003, 15:02:04
Super je to odbrana od opasnosti, te naochare iz Vodicha - kad mamut hoce da te pregazi, samo zazhmurish, ukochish se, pogurish i  opasnosti nema. Barem dok od tebe ne ostane mrlja. Posle nije ni vazhno.  :evil:
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: S. on 02-06-2003, 18:20:01
Meni je logicno da postoji i mogucnost fizicke veze izmedju pojedinih delova mozga. Recimo da jak zvuk prelazi neki treshold snage zvucnog signala tako da utice na opticki put - nesto kao da mozak interpretira jak zvuk kao jaku svetlost i automatski zatvara ocne kapke, ne bi li postedeo vid? Mozda bi mogao da se postavi realan eksperiment gde bi zamorcici bili izlozeni jakim zvukovima, i posmatralo bi se koji se delovi mozga, osim specificnih dela odgovornog za sluh, aktiviraju?

Pre oko mesec dana sam procitala clanak u SciAm (Maj 2003) koji me je zapravo potekao da razmisljam u ovom pravcu. Radi se o pojavi/osobini sinestezije (ne znam da li je termina preveden, ali mi se cini OK direktno "prevodjenje" pojma synesthesia). Pojedini ljudi, recimo, vide boje brojeva, osecaju ukus oblika, vide boju (bukvalno) odredjenih zvukova/tonova, itd. Pise da je odredjeno preko 50 razlicitih varijacija na temu. Cini mi se da je eksperiment korektno postavljen, mada se broj ispitanika ne pominje bas otvoreno (sto ukazuje da je broj bio mali, te neko uopstavanje na velike brojeve, ukoliko je bitno, ne stoji) te da je nepobitno utvrdjeno da pojedinci zaista vide boju brojeva. Ovo je klasifikovano kao "niza" sinestezija, gde se zapravo povezuje grafema broja 5 sa crvenom bojom (primer iz teksta), a grafema broja 2 sa zelenom. Postoji i odredjena "visa" sinestezija gde se apstraktno poimanje broja, i to posebno rednog broja, povezuje sa bojom - neki drugi ispitanici su povezivali rimsko V sa bojom, ili su dani u nedelji ili mesece u godini videli kao  boje: ponedeljak moze biti zelen, sreda roze, decembar zut.

Da skratim, do sada su ponudjena dva objasnjenja za fenomen. Prvo je i fizicko unakrsno povezivanje i preprecavanje veza izmedju razlicitih delova mozga. Druga mogucnost je da nema nista posebno u medjusobnim vezama mozga, ali da je ravnoteza ili kolicina hemijskih jedinjenja koja prenose  signale poremecena. Ukoliko bi recimo, lucenje inhibitora koji prigusuju unakrsne veze izmedju susednih delova mozga bilo smanjeno, moguce je da bi vise oblasti bilo aktivirano u isto vreme? Jedan od i fizicki bliskih oblasti mozga je i navedeni primer identifikacije grafema=boja: oblast koja procesira boju (V4) je prvi sused oblasti koja registruje oblike brojeva. Ima jos, a koga interesuje moze da pogleda  sam clanak (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0003014B-9D06-1E8F-8EA5809EC5880000&pageNumber=1&catID=2vise) Ima par zanimljivih stvari :)
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: DUNADAN on 03-06-2003, 19:44:11
uopshte nece da mi otvori sajt.
je l treba da imas neku shifru?
znam da na Science npr ne mogu da idem jer mi treba neka shifra.

shto se tiche pojave koju si opisala, znam da se javlja i kao posledica korishcenja LSD-a, kad dolazi do senzacija tipa "miris plavog" i slichno.
lichno mislim da je ideja fizichkog preplitanja puteva prenosa impulsa mnogo verovatnije objashnjenje od drugog koje se bazira na razlichitoj preraspodeli
inhibitornih molekula.

da li ti ispitanici stalno imaju te senzacije ili su retke koliko deja voux?
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: S. on 04-06-2003, 16:19:03
Da, pomenuta je slicna pojava kod osoba pod uticajem LSD-a - ima rezona ako stoji ideja da smo svi potencijalni sinestezisti, ali kod nekih osoba, pre svega zbog genetskog nasledja ova pojava je stalna.

Ne znam zasto nece d aotvori stranu, ali evo ti nize iskopiran tekst, bez slikica. Kasnije su da navratim i okacim i njih.

.....

April 15, 2003




Hearing Colors, Tasting Shapes




People with synesthesia--whose senses blend together--are providing valuable clues to understanding the organization and functions of the human brain




By Vilayanur S. Ramachandran and Edward M. Hubbard




When Matthew Blakeslee shapes hamburger patties with his hands, he experiences a vivid bitter taste in his mouth. Esmerelda Jones (a pseudonym) sees blue when she listens to the note C sharp played on the piano; other notes evoke different hues--so much so that the piano keys are actually color-coded, making it easier for her to remember and play musical scales. And when Jeff Coleman looks at printed black numbers, he sees them in color, each a different hue. Blakeslee, Jones and Coleman are among a handful of otherwise normal people who have synesthesia. They experience the ordinary world in extraordinary ways and seem to inhabit a mysterious no-man's-land between fantasy and reality. For them the senses--touch, taste, hearing, vision and smell--get mixed up instead of remaining separate.

Modern scientists have known about synesthesia since 1880, when Francis Galton, a cousin of Charles Darwin, published a paper in Nature on the phenomenon. But most have brushed it aside as fakery, an artifact of drug use (LSD and mescaline can produce similar effects) or a mere curiosity. About four years ago, however, we and others began to uncover brain processes that could account for synesthesia. Along the way, we also found new clues to some of the most mysterious aspects of the human mind, such as the emergence of abstract thought, metaphor and perhaps even language.


A common explanation of synesthesia is that the affected people are simply experiencing childhood memories and associations. Maybe a person had played with refrigerator magnets as a child and the number 5 was red and 6 was green. This theory does not answer why only some people retain such vivid sensory memories, however. You might think of cold when you look at a picture of an ice cube, but you probably do not feel cold, no matter how many encounters you may have had with ice and snow during your youth.


Another prevalent idea is that synesthetes are merely being metaphorical when they describe the note C flat as "red" or say that chicken tastes "pointy"--just as you and I might speak of a "loud" shirt or "sharp" cheddar cheese. Our ordinary language is replete with such sense-related metaphors, and perhaps synesthetes are just especially gifted in this regard.


We began trying to find out whether synesthesia is a genuine sensory experience in 1999. This deceptively simple question had plagued researchers in this field for decades. One natural approach is to start by asking the subjects outright: "Is this just a memory, or do you actually see the color as if it were right in front of you?" When we tried asking this question, we did not get very far. Some subjects did respond, "Oh, I see it perfectly clearly." But a more frequent reaction was, "I kind of see it, kind of don't" or "No, it is not like a memory. I see the number as being clearly red but I also know it isn't; it's black. So it must be a memory, I guess."


To determine whether an effect is truly perceptual, psychologists often use a simple test called pop-out or segregation. If you look at a set of tilted lines scattered amid a forest of vertical lines, the tilted lines stand out. Indeed, you can instantly segregate them from the background and group them mentally to form, for example, a separate triangular shape. Similarly, if most of a background's elements were green dots and you were told to look for red targets, the reds would pop out. On the other hand, a set of black 2's scattered among 5's of the same color almost blend in [see sidebar]. It is hard to discern the 2's without engaging in an item-by-item inspection of numbers, even though any individual number is just as clearly different from its neighbors as a tilted line is from a straight line. We thus may conclude that only certain primitive, or elementary, features, such as color and line orientation, can provide a basis for grouping. More complex perceptual tokens, such as numbers, cannot do so.


We wondered what would happen if we showed the mixed numbers to synesthetes who experience, for instance, red when they see a 5 and green with a 2. We arranged the 2's so that they formed a triangle. If synesthesia were a genuine sensory effect, our subjects should easily see the triangle because for them, the numbers would look colored.


When we conducted pop-out tests with volunteers, the answer was crystal clear. Unlike normal subjects, synesthetes correctly reported the shape formed by groups of numbers up to 90 percent of the time (exactly as nonsynesthetes do when the numbers actually have different colors). This result proves that the induced colors are genuinely sensory and that synesthetes are not just making things up. It is impossible for them to fake their success. In another striking example, we asked a synesthete who sees 5 tinged red to watch a computer display. He could not tell when we surreptitiously added an actual red hue to the white number unless the red was sufficiently intense; he could instantly spot a real green added to the 5.


Visual Processing
 Confirmation that synesthesia is real brings up the question, Why do some people experience this weird phenomenon? Our experiments lead us to favor the idea that synesthetes are experiencing the result of some kind of cross wiring in the brain. This basic concept was initially proposed about 100 years ago, but we have now identified where in the brain and how such cross wiring might occur.


An understanding of the neurobiological factors at work requires some familiarity with how the brain processes visual information [see illustration on opposite page]. After light reflected from a scene hits the cones (color receptors) in the eye, neural signals from the retina travel to area 17, in the occipital lobe at the back of the brain. There the image is processed further within local clusters, or blobs, into such simple attributes as color, motion, form and depth. Afterward, information about these separate features is sent forward and distributed to several far-flung regions in the temporal and parietal lobes. In the case of color, the information goes to area V4 in the fusiform gyrus of the temporal lobe. From there it travels to areas that lie farther up in the hierarchy of color centers, including a region near a patch of cortex called the TPO (for the junction of the temporal, parietal and occipital lobes). These higher areas may be concerned with more sophisticated aspects of color processing. For example, leaves look as green at dusk as they do at midday, even though the mix of wavelengths reflected from the leaves is very different.


Numerical computation, too, seems to happen in stages. An early step also takes place in the fusiform gyrus, where the actual shapes of numbers are represented, and a later one occurs in the angular gyrus, a part of the TPO that is concerned with numerical concepts such as ordinality (sequence) and cardinality (quantity). (When the angular gyrus is damaged by a stroke or a tumor, the patient can still identify numbers but can no longer divide or subtract. Multiplication often survives because it is learned by rote.) In addition, brain-imaging studies in humans strongly hint that visually presented letters of the alphabet or numbers (graphemes) activate cells in the fusiform gyrus, whereas the sounds of the syllables (phonemes) are processed higher up, once again in the general vicinity of the TPO.


Because both colors and numbers are processed initially in the fusiform gyrus and subsequently near the angular gyrus, we suspected that number-color synesthesia might be caused by cross wiring between V4 and the number-appearance area (both within the fusiform) or between the higher color area and the number-concept area (both in the TPO). Other, more exotic forms of the condition might result from similar cross wiring of different sensory-processing regions. That the hearing center in the temporal lobes is also close to the higher brain area that receives color signals from V4 could explain sound-color synesthesia. Similarly, Matthew Blakeslee's tasting of touch might occur because of cross wiring between the taste cortex in a region called the insula and an adjacent cortex representing touch by the hands.



Assuming that neural cross wiring does lie at the root of synesthesia, why does it happen? We know that it runs in families, so it has a genetic component. Perhaps a mutation causes connections to emerge between brain areas that are usually segregated. Or maybe the mutation leads to defective pruning of preexisting connections between areas that are normally connected only sparsely. If the mutation were to be expressed (that is, to exert its effects) in some brain areas but not others, this patchiness might explain why some synesthetes conflate colors and numbers whereas others see colors when they hear phonemes or musical notes. People who have one type of synesthesia are more likely to have another, which adds weight to this idea.


Although we initially thought in terms of physical cross wiring, we have come to realize that the same effect could occur if the wiring--the number of connections between regions--was fine but the balance of chemicals traveling between regions was skewed. So we now speak in terms of cross activation. For instance, neighboring brain regions often inhibit one another's activity, which serves to minimize cross talk. A chemical imbalance of some kind that reduces such inhibition--for example, by blocking the action of an inhibitory neurotransmitter or failing to produce an inhibitor--would also cause activity in one area to elicit activity in a neighbor. Such cross activation could, in theory, also occur between widely separated areas, which would account for some of the less common forms of synesthesia.


Support for cross activation comes from other experiments, some of which also help to explain the varied forms synesthesia can take. One takes advantage of a visual phenomenon known as crowding [see sidebar]. If you stare at a small plus sign in an image that also has a number 5 off to one side, you will find that it is easy to discern that number, even though you are not looking at it directly. But if we now surround the 5 with four other numbers, such as 3's, then you can no longer identify it. It looks out of focus. Volunteers who perceive normally are no more successful at identifying this number than mere chance. That is not because things get fuzzy in the periphery of vision. After all, you could see the 5 perfectly clearly when it wasn't surrounded by 3's. You cannot identify it now because of limited attentional resources. The flanking 3's somehow distract your attention away from the central 5 and prevent you from seeing it.


A big surprise came when we gave the same test to two synesthetes. They looked at the display and made remarks like, "I cannot see the middle number. It's fuzzy but it looks red, so I guess it must be a 5." Even though the middle number did not consciously register, it seems that the brain was nonetheless processing it somewhere. Synesthetes could then use this color to deduce intellectually what the number was. If our theory is right, this finding implies that the number is processed in the fusiform gyrus and evokes the appropriate color before the stage at which the crowding effect occurs in the brain; paradoxically, the result is that even an "invisible" number can produce synesthesia.


Another finding we made also supports this conclusion. When we reduced the contrast between the number and the background, the synesthetic color became weaker until, at low contrast, subjects saw no color at all, even though the number was perfectly visible. Whereas the crowding experiment shows that an invisible number can elicit color, the contrast experiment conversely indicates that viewing a number does not guarantee seeing a color. Perhaps low-contrast numbers activate cells in the fusiform adequately for conscious perception of the number but not enough to cross-activate the color cells in V4.


Finally, we found that if we showed synesthetes Roman numerals, a V, say, they saw no color--which suggests that it is not the numerical concept of a number, in this case 5, but the grapheme's visual appearance that drives the color. This observation, too, implicates cross activation within the fusiform gyrus itself in number-color synesthesia, because that structure is mainly involved in analyzing the visual shape, not the high-level meaning of the number. One intriguing twist: Imagine an image with a large 5 made up of little 3's; you can see either the "forest" (the 5) or focus minutely on the "trees" (the 3's). Two synesthete subjects reported that they saw the color switch, depending on their focus. This test implies that even though synesthesia can arise as a result of the visual appearance alone--not the high-level concept--the manner in which the visual input is categorized, based on attention, is also critical.



But as we began to recruit other volunteers, it soon became obvious that not all synesthetes who colorize their world are alike. In some, even days of the week or months of the year elicit colors. Monday might be green, Wednesday pink, and December yellow.


The only thing that days of the week, months and numbers have in common is the concept of numerical sequence, or ordinality. For certain synesthetes, perhaps it is the abstract concept of numerical sequence that drives the color, rather than the visual appearance of the number. Could it be that in these individuals, the cross wiring occurs between the angular gyrus and the higher color area near the TPO instead of between areas in the fusiform? If so, that interaction would explain why even abstract number representations, or the idea of the numbers elicited by days of the week or months, will strongly evoke specific colors. In other words, depending on where in the brain the mutant gene is expressed, it can result in different types of the condition--"higher" synesthesia, driven by numerical concept, or "lower" synesthesia, produced by visual appearance alone. Similarly, in some lower forms, the visual appearance of a letter might generate color, whereas in higher forms it is the sound, or phoneme, summoned by that letter; phonemes are represented near the TPO.


We also observed one case in which we believe cross activation enables a colorblind synesthete to see numbers tinged with hues he otherwise cannot perceive; charmingly, he refers to these as "Martian colors." Although his retinal color receptors cannot process certain wavelengths, we suggest that his brain color area is working just fine and being cross-activated when he sees numbers.


In brain-imaging experiments we are conducting with Geoff Boynton of the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in San Diego, we have obtained preliminary evidence of local activation of the color area V4 in a manner predicted by our cross-activation theory of synesthesia. (Jeffrey Gray of the Institute of Psychiatry in London and his colleagues have reported similar results.) On presenting black and white numbers to synesthetes, brain activation arose not only in the number area--as it would in normal subjects--but also in the color area. Our group also observed differences between types of synesthetes. One of our subjects with lower synesthesia showed much greater activation in earlier stages of color processing than occurred in controls. In contrast, higher synesthetes show less activation at these earlier levels.


A Way with Metaphor
Our insights into the neurological basis of synesthesia could help explain some of the creativity of painters, poets and novelists. According to one study, the condition is seven times as common in creative people as in the general population.


One skill that many creative people share is a facility for using metaphor ("It is the east, and Juliet is the sun"). It is as if their brains are set up to make links between seemingly unrelated domains--such as the sun and a beautiful young woman. In other words, just as synesthesia involves making arbitrary links between seemingly unrelated perceptual entities such as colors and numbers, metaphor involves making links between seemingly unrelated conceptual realms. Perhaps this is not just a coincidence.


Numerous high-level concepts are probably anchored in specific brain regions, or maps. If you think about it, there is nothing more abstract than a number, and yet it is represented, as we have seen, in a relatively small brain region, the angular gyrus. Let us say that the mutation we believe brings about synesthesia causes excess communication among different brain maps--small patches of cortex that represent specific perceptual entities, such as sharpness or curviness of shapes or, in the case of color maps, hues. Depending on where and how widely in the brain the trait was expressed, it could lead to both synesthesia and to a propensity toward linking seemingly unrelated concepts and ideas--in short, creativity. This would explain why the apparently useless synesthesia gene has survived in the population.



In addition to clarifying why artists might be prone to experiencing synesthesia, our research suggests that we all have some capacity for it and that this trait may have set the stage for the evolution of abstraction--an ability at which humans excel. The TPO (and the angular gyrus within it), which plays a part in the condition, is normally involved in cross-modal synthesis. It is the brain region where information from touch, hearing and vision is thought to flow together to enable the construction of high-level perceptions. For example, a cat is fluffy (touch), it meows and purrs (hearing), it has a certain appearance (vision) and odor (smell), all of which are derived simultaneously by the memory of a cat or the sound of the word "cat."


Could it be that the angular gyrus--which is disproportionately larger in humans compared with that in apes and monkeys--evolved originally for cross-modal associations but then became co-opted for other, more abstract functions such as metaphors? Consider two drawings, originally designed by psychologist Wolfgang Köhler. One looks like an inkblot and the other, a jagged piece of shattered glass. When we ask, "Which of these is a 'bouba,' and which is a 'kiki'?" 98 percent of people pick the inkblot as a bouba and the other one as a kiki. Perhaps that is because the gentle curves of the amoebalike figure metaphorically mimic the gentle undulations of the sound "bouba" as represented in the hearing centers in the brain as well as the gradual inflection of the lips as they produce the curved "boo-baa" sound. In contrast, the waveform of the sound "kiki" and the sharp inflection of the tongue on the palate mimic the sudden changes in the jagged visual shape. The only thing these two kiki features have in common is the abstract property of jaggedness that is extracted somewhere in the vicinity of the TPO, probably in the angular gyrus. (We recently found that people with damage to the angular gyrus lose the bouba-kiki effect--they cannot match the shape with the correct sound.) In a sense, perhaps we are all closet synesthetes.


So the angular gyrus performs a very elementary type of abstraction--extracting the common denominator from a set of strikingly dissimilar entities. We do not know how exactly it does this job. But once the ability to engage in cross-modal abstraction emerged, it might have paved the way for the more complex types of abstraction. The opportunistic takeover of one function for a different one is common in evolution. For example, bones in the ear used for hearing in mammals evolved from the back of the jawbone in reptiles. Beyond metaphor and abstract thinking, cross-modal abstraction might even have provided seeds for language [see sidebar].


When we began our research on synesthesia, we had no inkling of where it would take us. Little did we suspect that this eerie phenomenon, long regarded as a mere curiosity, might offer a window into the nature of thought.


VILAYANUR S. RAMACHANDRAN AND EDWARD M. HUBBARD collaborate on studies of synesthesia. Ramachandran directs the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California at San Diego and is adjunct professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies. He trained as a physician and later obtained a Ph.D. from Trinity College, University of Cambridge. He has received a fellowship from All Souls College, University of Oxford, the Ariens Kappers Gold Medal from the Royal Netherlands Academy, and the plenary lecture award from the American Academy of Neurology. He gave the BBC Reith Lectures for 2003. This is his fourth article for Scientific American. Hubbard is a fourth-year graduate student in the departments of psychology and cognitive science at U.C.S.D. His research combines psychophysics and functional magnetic resonance imaging to explore the neural basis of multisensory phenomena. A founding member of the American Synesthesia
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: S. on 05-06-2003, 17:00:32
(http://www.sciam.com/media/inline/0003014B-9D06-1E8F-8EA5809EC5880000_2.gif)

i

(http://www.sciam.com/media/inline/0003014B-9D06-1E8F-8EA5809EC5880000_4.gif)

Mada, ko moze bolje je da ide direktno na stranice www.sciam.com i pogleda prethodni broj u arhivi. Vidim da je pristup clanku slobodan. Ostatak slika je tamo. "Bauba" i "Kiki" je zanimljiv eksperiment. Pitam se samo kako bi trebalo da ove reci zvuce u srpskom?
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: Unicorn on 08-06-2003, 09:40:07
OK sve je to zanimljivo em pouchno, ALI kakve veze ima sinestezija sa reakcijom straha? Koliko vidim, sinestezija dodje kao neka nuspojava ili "odstupanje" chiju funkciju nauchnici josh nisu otkrili. Teshko mi je da zamislim racionalno objashnjenje zasto bi sinestezija bila evolutivno, ekoloshki, bioloshki znachajna. Adrenalinska reakcija (koja se deshava kad se uplashimo) ima VEOMA smisleno i jasno objashnjenje. Ako primati zazhmure kad se uplashe, onda MORA biti da to ima neko znachenje i funkciju, tj. teshko da se radi o "sinestetichkom" nusproizvodu. Zato shto za strahom sledi bezhanje ili ukochenost (zavisi od toga koja je strategija bolja za prezhivljavanje opasnosti). Sama funkcija straha je da se odredjenim sledom refleksnih reakcija zhivotinja/primat/chovek efikasnije pripremi za izbegavanje opasnosti & prezhivljavanje.
Shto se sinestezije tiche, pa neke tvrdnje u prilozhenom duuuugom tekstu "mirishu"  :lol: na uslovljavanje - to shto deca povezuju magnete raznih boja sa brojevima je chisto uslovljavanje, ili bolje da kazhem samouslovljavanje. Bilo bi ruzhno uporediti decu sa Pavlovljevim psom, ali u sushtini je to sve isto, samo shto u sluchaju sinestezije postoji slozhenija fizioloshka osnova (nemamo posla sa refleksnim luchenjem zheludachnih sokova, nego sa povezivanjem dva chulna inputa). Verovatno da se sinestezija mozhe uspostaviti kod male dece chak i namerno, jerbo, koliko je meni poznato, mozak fizioloshki sazreva do 3. godine zhivota, tj. do trece godine se uspostavljaju funkcionalne veze, a ostatak zhivota mozak nam funkcionishe koristeci te veze, dok se nove uspostavljaju samo u sluchaju povreda ili odumiranja delova mozga. Ako greshim, ispravite me.
Nego, pade mi napamet jedna stvar: da li sinestetichari SVI vide ISTU boju kad chuju odredjeni zvuk (tj. da li svi povezuju iste brojeve sa istim bojama) ili je to individualno? Ako je individualno, onda se verovatno radi o uslovljavanju. Ako svi povezuju boje i zvuke ili boje i brojeve na ISTI nachin, e, onda mozhemo diskutovati o anatomskoj i fizioloshkoj zasnovanosti sinestezije. Tako neshto bi se sjajno slagalo sa hipotezama o tome da su u osnovi razmishljanja kvantno-fizichki fenomeni.
Zar kvarkovi vec ne nose imena po bojama?  :lol:
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: S. on 10-06-2003, 16:41:49
Nope, doduse mozda smo preveli flavor kao boju, mada ruku na srce kvantnu nikada nisam spremala iz knjiga na srpskom, te ne znam. Elem, kvarkovi imaju sledece ukuse ;)

gore
dole
cudni
sarm
vrh (prvo nazvan istina)
dno (prvi naziv lepota)


Quote from: "Unicorn"
... Teshko mi je da zamislim racionalno objashnjenje zasto bi sinestezija bila evolutivno, ekoloshki, bioloshki znachajna. ... Ako primati zazhmure kad se uplashe, onda MORA biti da to ima neko znachenje i funkciju, tj. teshko da se radi o "sinestetichkom" nusproizvodu. ...


I nemoj da zamisljas, uradi eksperiment :lol:

Meni, laiku, nije jasno zasto sve sto primati rade MORA da ima neko znacenje sa stanovista evolucije, bar u ovom smislu u kome raspravljamo. Da se ne rasplinjavam, sta je sa najboljom metodom, ever, pokusaja i pogresaka?

U ovom slucaju, mozda bi se stanoviste jednoznacnog uzroka i posledice moglo prihvatiti, da je ljudski mozak prosto skup dobro definisanih pregrada, koje nemaju niceg zajednickog... pa cak ni zid koji ih odvaja. A znamo da nije tako.

Quote

Shto se sinestezije tiche, pa neke tvrdnje u prilozhenom duuuugom tekstu "mirishu"  :lol: na uslovljavanje - to shto deca povezuju magnete raznih boja sa brojevima je chisto uslovljavanje, ili bolje da kazhem samouslovljavanje....
Nego, pade mi napamet jedna stvar: da li sinestetichari SVI vide ISTU boju kad chuju odredjeni zvuk (tj. da li svi povezuju iste brojeve sa istim bojama) ili je to individualno?


Ne znam, iz ovog teksta mogu da zakljucim da je, eventualno, "visa" sinestezija zapravo uslovljen refleks. Ona, "osnovna" - sta bi moglo da uslovi dete da oblik grafeme povezuje sa bojom?

Ako su definisali preko 50 oblika sinestezije, bice da ne vide svi iste veze. Postoji lista radova na istu temu na kraju clanka, ali je meni rad pretstavljen na tricavih 36 strana, a u psiholoskom casopisu, previse zahtevan u ovom trenutku.
Title: WEIRD SEX LAWS
Post by: S. on 10-06-2003, 18:01:10
Hm, da ne ostane da visi u vazduhu - koncept boje kvarkova, iako je RGB u osnovi, nema veze sa konceptom boje u real life-u. Radi se o prosto imenovanju kvantnih osobina koje odredjuju sposobnost/dozvole mesanja/sjedinjavanja razlicitih kvarkova da bi rezultujuca boja bila, recimo, bela u barionima.