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crippled_avenger

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Ideologija Nauke?
« on: 03-05-2007, 15:58:26 »
"Kako se zaštititi od nauke?"

Pol Fajerabend, filozof nauke

Anarhistički pogled Pola Fajerabenda
otkrio je totalitarizam u naučnom stilu mišljenja

Piše: Jovana Gligorijević


Naučni stil mišljenja je dominantan jer nauka u potpunosti spoznaje konture i tokove funkcionisanja prirode, društva i čoveka. Autoritet nauke u hijerarhiji svih delatnosti ljudskog roda danas je neprikosnoven.

Pa, ipak, treba li joj poklanjati slepo poverenje?

Iz ugla savremenog čoveka bilo bi sumanuto negirati način na koji naučne činjenice opisuju svet. Ali, ovde nije reč o tome, već o posledicama koje strogo naučni pogled na svet ima po vrednosni sistem ljudi. Strogo gledano, najizrazitija karakteristika nauke jeste njen ateistički odnos prema prirodi i čoveku. Na prvi pogled, ništa strašno:
"ako nauka kaže da boga nema, onda ga nema,

 i šta sad" - nastavljamo dalje –

 verujući neka veruju, ostali ne moraju."

Etički problem

Međutim, pogledajmo stvari ovako: nauka je dominantni način mišljenja u savremenoj kulturi, ona u potpunosti “pokriva” sve regione prirode, društva, ljudske delatnosti, tako da bi se moglo reći da je način života u našem dobu strogo-naučni. I upravo tu nas čeka “kvaka 22” u ovoj priči: nauka, iako modus vivendi savremenog čoveka, ne poseduje nikakav etički karakter.

Austrijski filozof nauke Pol Fajerabend (1924-1994), prvi je uočio ovaj problem, pa je najveći deo svog rada posvetio demistifikaciji autoriteta moderne nauke. Fajerabend  ne gleda na nauku kao na vrhunac ljudske delatnosti, ona za njega nema nikakav povlašćen položaj, već je samo još jedna u nizu, ravnopravna sa svim ostalim.  

“Želim da odbranim društvo i njegove pripadnike od svih ideologija, uključujući i nauku. Sve ideologije moraju se posmatrati u perspektivi. One ne smeju biti uzete suviše ozbiljno. Treba ih shvatiti kao bajke koje imaju da kažu mnogo interesantnih stvari, ali koje u sebi takođe sadrže i gnusne laži, ili kao etičke propise koji mogu biti korisna praktična pravila, ali su kobni kada se slede doslovno” - rekao je Fajerabend u svom predavanju pod nazivom “Kako zaštititi društvo od nauke”.


Šovinizam nauka

U knjizi “Protiv metode”, Fajerabend kaže da u periodu od XVII do početka XX veka, šovinizam nauka nije postojao.

Nauka nije bila totalitarna,
jer se država još uvek nije snažno opredelila za nju.

Pravi značaj nauka tada se ogledao u praksi: imale su snagu oslobađanja i istinskog napretka, a u isto vreme, ograničavale su uticaj drugih ideologija – naučnici su u to vreme bili borci za istinu i slobodu. Međutim, po Fajerabendovom mišljenju, sa naukom se dogodilo ono što se inače često sa ideologijama događa: izopačila se u sopstvenu suprotnost – totalitarizam.

Razvoj nauke u XIX i XX veku, a naročito posle Drugog svetskog rata, po Fajerabendu pokazuje da trijumf određenih ideja i institucija istovremeno znači i njihov kraj, upravo zbog toga što su u pitanju ideologije, to jest, totalitarne institucije. Nauka poprima karakter sistema, odnosno, totalitarnog procesa i postaje sluga tiranske religije ovih ili onih interesa, totalitarnih merila. Konačna posledica jeste da nauka postaje rigidna koliko i one ideologije protiv kojih se borila:

izuzeta je od spoljne kritike,  
a sud naučnika prima se sa slepim poverenjem,  
baš kao što je to nekada bio slučaj sa sudom kardinala ili biskupa.  

Ono što je kompatibilno sa naukom, treba da živi, ono što nije, treba da umre, konstatuje Fajerabend. Predstavnici moderne nauke nesposobni su da kritički misle o sebi. Ovakvu situaciju Fajerabend naziva samoubilačkom narcisoidnošću – najveća moguća sreća svedena je samo na napredak, a napredak je moguće zamisliti bez ikakvog smisla i humaniteta.


Monstrum istine


U predavanju “Kako zaštititi društvo od nauke” Fajerabend se pita da li je ovaj opis pomalo nepravedan prema nauci i nije li on sam predstavio stvar u iskrivljenom svetlu, prećutavši da nauka, iako je postala kruta i prestala da bude instrument promene i oslobađanja, ipak – otkriva istinu.

"Kad se ovo ima u vidu - kaže Fajerabend -
  mogli bismo zaključiti da krutost nauke nije rezultat ljudskog htenja,
  već da leži u prirodi  stvari:
  kad jednom otkrijemo istinu,
  šta nam drugo preostaje osim da je sledimo?" ,

Međutim, Fajerabend nam ubrzo otkriva da stvari uopšte ne stoje tako. Gornji odgovor upotrebljava se uvek kad jedna ideologija želi da pojača veru svojih sledbenkika:

“’Istina’ je tako divno neutralna reč.
  Niko to neće poricati - a ipak niko ne zna šta takav stav znači.  
  Lako je na taj način izvrnuti celu stvar  i preokrenuti -  
  odanost istini u svakodnevnom životu,  
  u odanost Istini te ideologije”,  

kaže Fajerabend i nastavlja: “Naravno, nije tačno da moramo slediti istinu. Mnoge ideje su vodiči ljudskog života. Istina je jedna od njih. Sloboda i duhovna nezavisnost su druge. Ako se istina, kako je neki ideolozi shvataju, sukobljava sa slobodom tada smo u situaciji izbora. Možemo da odbacimo slobodu. Ali možemo da odbacimo i istinu.” U ovom citatu krije se ključna tačka Fajerabendove kritike moderne nauke: ona sputava slobodu mišljenja. A ako nauka sputava slobodu zato što je otkrila istinu, Fajerabendov odgovor glasi: “Postoje bolje stvari nego pronaći i slediti takvog monstruma.”


Dole rezultati!  

“Nauka može da vrši uticaj na društvo,  
 ali samo u onoj meri u kojoj je to dozvoljeno bilo kojoj političkoj
 ili nekoj drugoj grupi za vršenje pritiska na javnost”,

Pol Fajerabend (1924-1994)


Pristalice povlašćenog položaja nauke mogle bi pokušati da se odbrane tvrdnjom da nauka zaslužuje takav položaj zahvaljujući tome što daje rezultate. Međutim, Fajerabend pobija i ovaj argument, tvrdeći da on stoji jedino ako se može uzeti kao činjenica da ništa drugo nikada ne proizvodi rezultate.

Doduše, Fajerabend priznaje da su oblici života različiti od nauke nestali ili su potpuno degenerisani, što onemogućava komparaciju. Ali, po njemu, situacija nije toliko beznadežna:

“Upoznali smo metode medicinske dijagnostike i terapije koji su efikasni (a možda čak i efikasniji nego odgovarajući delovi zapadne medicine) i koji su još uvek zasnovani na ideologiji koja je radikalno različita od ideologije zapadne nauke. Saznali smo da postoje pojave kao što je telepatija i telekineza, koje je naučni pristup jednostavno izbrisao a koje bi mogle biti upotrebljene za istraživanja na jedan potpuno nov način. (…) Takođe, istina je da pojave kao što su telekineza i akupunktura mogu biti na kraju apsorbovane u korpus nauke i na taj način nazvane ‘naučnim’. Ali zapazite da se ovo dešava jedino posle dugog perioda otpora za vreme koga nauka, ne sadržeći još ove fenomene, pokušava da uspostavi kontrolu nad onim oblicima života koji ih sadrže”.

Činjenica da nauka ima rezultate računa se u njenu korist samo ako su ovi rezultati postignuti od same nauke, bez ikakve pomoći sa strane. Međutim, Fajerabend smatra da nauka jedva da ikada postiže rezultate na ovaj način i navodi niz primera koji potkrepljuju ovu tezu:

kada je Kopernik uveo novi pogled na univerzum,  
nije konsultovao naučne prethodnike već -
“jednog ludog pitagorejca” kakav je bio Filolaj,  
mehanika i optika mnogo duguju zanatlijama,  
medicina babicama i vešticama

Fajerabend navodi i jedan savremeniji primer: kada su kineski komunisti vratili na univerzitete i u bolnice tradicionalnu kinesku medicinu, po njegovom mišljenju, rezultati su premašili dostignuća zapadne medicine.  

Po Fajerabendu, ne postoji ni jedan jedini argument koji bi mogao da bude upotrebljen u prilog ove izuzetne uloge koju nauka danas igra u društvu. Nauka je učinila mnogo stvari, ali to su učinile i druge ideologije.

Nauka je samo jedna od mnogih ideologija
koje pokreću društvo,  
i treba da bude tretirana kao takva.


Naučni anarhizam


Najvažnija konsekvenca Fajerabendovog razmatranja jeste to da je neophodno formalno odvajanje države i nauke, baš u smislu u kome sada postoji formalna podvojenost države i crkve. “Nauka može da vrši uticaj na društvo, ali samo u onoj meri u kojoj je to dozvoljeno bilo kojoj političkoj ili nekoj drugoj grupi za vršenje pritiska na javnost”, kaže on. Naučnici mogu biti konsultovani u vezi sa važnim projektima, ali krajnji sud mora biti ostavljen demokratski izabranim savetodavnim telima koja se sastoje od laika.

Na logično pitanje da li će laici biti sposobni da dođu do ispravnog suda, Fajerabend odgovara da je to sasvim izvesno, jer su kompetencija, komplikovanost i uspeh nauke mnogo preuveličani. Reč je o disciplini koju može da ispituje i kritikuje bilo ko od zainteresovanih. Ona izgleda teška i duboka samo zbog sistematske kampanje zamagljivanja koju vode naučnici.

Fajerabend smatra da je nauka u suštini anarhistički poduhvat.

Anarhizam možda nije najsrećnija pozicija u smislu političke filozofije nije najatraktivniji, ali se pokazuje kao najbolji lek za epistemologiju i za filozofiju nauke.

Epistemološki anarhizam razlikuje se
i od skepticizma i od političkog (religijskog) anarhizma,  
jer isključuje nasilje,  pa je zato najbliži dadaizmu.


Epistemološki anarhista se ne usteže da brani
ni najtrivijalnije, ni najneumerenije iskaze.


To je očigledno i kod samog Fajerabenda koji se ne ustručava da napiše: “Tri puta ‘ura’ za kalifornijske fundamentaliste koji su uspeli u tome da se dogmatska formulacija teorije evolucije ukloni iz udžbenika i da se prikaz Postanja uvrsti u njih.”

Naravno, Fajerabend naglašava da je svestan da bi oni postali isto tako šovinistički i totalitaristički nastrojeni kao što su naučnici danas, samo kada bi im bila data šansa da sami upravljaju društvom:

“Ideologije su čudesne -
 kada se upotrebljavaju zajedno sa drugim ideologijama.

 One postaju dosadne i doktrinarne
 čim njihove zasluge dovedu do uklanjanja njihovih oponenata.”


Slepa vera u demokratiju


Pozicija nauke među svim oblastima humanističke delatnosti postala je centralna tokom XX veka. U tim i takvim okolnostima, potpuno smo okrenuti zemaljskim, materijalnim stvarima, verujući da će upravo nauka u najvećoj meri doprineti poboljšanju kvaliteta ljudskog života.

Suština Fajerabendove filozofije jeste da nauku treba podvrći demokratskoj kontroli i  humanizovati je, to jest učiniti je ljudskom, dostojnom čoveka, a to određuju svi građani u slobodnom društvu  u demokratiji, a ne samo eksperti.

Stručnjake plaćaju građani
i zato građani treba da imaju nad njima kontrolu,  
kao i nad drugima koji su u službi javnosti .

Međutim, Fajerabendovi kritičari uočili su u ovim razmatranjima jednu ozbiljnu manu – pojednostavljivanje: s jedne strane stoji bauk nauke, u kojoj Fajerabend vidi samo ono što je prinudno i restriktivno, a s druge, on suviše idealizuje demokratiju, posmatrajući je kao utopiju i idealno rešenje za sev probleme proistekla iz dominacije nauke.

Priznajući da on s pravom nema poverenja u nauku,  
Fajerabendovi kritičari pitaju se -

"da li s pravom poklanja puno poverenje demokratiji?"
Nema potrebe da zalis me, mene je vec sram
Nema potrebe da hvalis me, dobro ja to znam

S.

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #1 on: 03-05-2007, 22:09:00 »
Ermmm... ovo je - sta? Pokazna vezba sta se sve pod kapom nebeskom moze i misliti i pisati? Lepo.

Nauka nije ideologija. Tacka. I dalje me mrzelo da citam, pregledala sam na preskok. Pa mi zapalo za oko ono oko "demokratske kontrole", te da nije "humanizovana", da je "nedostojna coveka", "neljudska". Mislim, da, naukom se bave Marsovci, a ne ljudi? I jos me zanima kako bi gradjani da  "kontrolisu nauku" kad se u gro ljudi bori i rukama i nogama protiv bilo kakvog naucnog saznanja?

A i ono o otsustvu etike me bas dirnulo, onako duboko i ljudski. Eh.

zakk

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #2 on: 04-05-2007, 00:58:08 »
ma dalo bi se ljucki isvađati samo o validnosti prve dve rečenice ovog tekstića:

Quote
Naučni stil mišljenja je dominantan jer nauka u potpunosti spoznaje konture i tokove funkcionisanja prirode, društva i čoveka. Autoritet nauke u hijerarhiji svih delatnosti ljudskog roda danas je neprikosnoven.
Why shouldn't things be largely absurd, futile, and transitory? They are so, and we are so, and they and we go very well together.

S.

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #3 on: 04-05-2007, 12:16:21 »
:mrgreen: da se videti da si jos svez urednik ili pomocnik urednika neke pisane reci, "stil je dominantan u potpunosti svih delatnosti neprikosnovenih", da vidis da moze i recenica da se sastavi, oko sokolovo! :lol:

Blagodeti edit-a... Zanimljivo procitati o coveku samom  izmedju ostalog i:
"2.3 The War (1939-1945)

As far as his army record goes, Feyerabend claims in his autobiography that his mind is a blank. But in fact this is one of the periods he tells us most about. Having passed his final high school exams in March 1942, he was drafted into the Arbeitsdienst (the work service introduced by the Nazis), and sent for basic training in Pirmasens, Germany. Feyerabend opted to stay in Germany to keep out of the way of the fighting, but subsequently asked to be sent to where the fighting was, having become bored with cleaning the barracks! He even considered joining the SS, for aesthetic reasons. His unit was then posted Quelerne en Bas, near Brest, in Brittany. Still, the events of the war did not register. In November 1942, he returned home to Vienna, but left before Christmas to join the Wehrmacht's Pioneer Corps.

Their training took place in Krems, near Vienna. Feyerabend soon volunteered for officers' school, not because of an urge for leadership, but out of a wish to survive, his intention being to use officers' school as a way to avoid front-line fighting. The trainees were sent to Yugoslavia. In Vukovar, during July 1943, he learnt of his mother's suicide, but was absolutely unmoved, and obviously shocked his fellow officers by displaying no feeling. In December that same year, Feyerabend's unit was sent into battle on the northern part of the Russian front, but although they blew up buildings, they never encountered any Russian soldiers. ..."

lilit

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #4 on: 04-05-2007, 13:51:08 »
heheh.
draga zlockava S.
samo da ti kazem da mi tvoji komentari ulepsaju dan :lol:.
ja se vec dva dana lupkam po prsticima posto nisam sigurna da bih bila tako odmerena i fina prema autoru clanka.
no, kad si vec pomenula Krems, evo table sa ulaska u grad (isla ja pre nekoliko nedelja da vidim izlozbu Carla Barksa :) ):

proslavljali ljudi 50 godina od kraja saveznicke okupacije.
nije da ih ne razumem. :wink:

edit: typo + smajli
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

varvarin

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #5 on: 04-05-2007, 14:01:28 »
"...Suština Fajerabendove filozofije jeste da nauku treba podvrći demokratskoj kontroli i humanizovati je, to jest učiniti je ljudskom, dostojnom čoveka, a to određuju svi građani u slobodnom društvu u demokratiji, a ne samo eksperti. (!!)
Stručnjake plaćaju građani i zato građani treba da imaju nad njima kontrolu, kao i nad drugima koji su u službi javnosti ."

S, bila si suviše obzirna.
Ne, nauka nikako nije ideologija. (Ja bih to drugim rečima, ali neću sada, jer sam već na lošem glasu, na ovom forumu...)
Možda je  Austrijanac samo zanimljivi ekscentrik. A možda je ova knjiga (ili šta je već), još jedan pokušaj u sistematskom srozavanju nekih opštih mesta u današnjoj nauci (poput relativizovanja Darvina u korist kreacionizma), izjednačavanju subjektivnih i objektivnih istina... što u krajnjoj liniji vodi povratku dobrog, starog Boga. Ukratko, duhovna kontrarevolucija (primer - Poljska, a ima još .)
Primer sa tradicionalnom kineskom medicinom nije dobar - ona je TAKOĐE nauka, starija od evropske medicine, i postiže rezultate. A to je valjda merilo.
Telekinezu, tako dragu autoru, još nisu dokazali, ali on je uzima kao primer da napada nauku... Ukratko, ta nauka je sumnjiva - i NEMORALNA. A ako je istina bolna - ignorišimo istinu.
Ovde mi pada na pamet prepiska između Ajnštajna i Bora, u vezi kvantne teorije koja se Ajnštajnu nikako nije dopadala, pa je pisao: "Ne verujem da se Bog kocka Vasionom!" Na šta je Bor odgovorio: "Prestani da propisuješ Bogu šta će da radi!"
Ili, kako ja shvatam - kad siđete dovoljno duboko u česticu, ima mesta i za Boga, ako vam je do njega. Ali, čak ni ON ne poništava kvantni efekat, ni Hajzenbergov princip neodređenosti.
To postoji. A vi se odredite prema njima.

Alexdelarge

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #6 on: 04-05-2007, 15:24:31 »
Interesantno razmisljanje...mene sumanute ideje uvek privuku(a posle se cudim sto me ljudi posmatraju kao cudaka).Ima li kod nas knjige od ovog autora da se kupe?
moj se postupak čitanja sastoji u visokoobdarenom prelistavanju.

srpski film je remek-delo koje treba da dobije sve prve nagrade.

S.

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #7 on: 04-05-2007, 18:15:09 »
@lilit_depp :shock: jel' tamo lokalni SPO na vlasti? I molim te da se ne lupas po prstima, pisi, bre, na opstu radost i veselje :lol:

Isto vazi i za varvarina, mislim, dosta tog povlacenja varvara, dokle bre? A?!

Ako dobro citam onu biografiju glavno, ako vec ne i jedino delo "Against method" je iz 1975 i da je pre svega i iznad svega o Zapadnom drustvu.  Vrlo mi je tesko da branim neke po meni smislene stavove koje je tu i tamo iznosio, posle ovoga: "...his conclusion that “objectively” there may be nothing to choose between the claims of science and those of astrology, voodoo, and alternative medicine,..." :(

A mene i dalje zanima sta cripple kaze, zarad cega ovo copy-paste bez komentara?

mac

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #8 on: 04-05-2007, 18:52:24 »
Naukom ne dolazimo do zaključka da nema Boga, nego da nema potrebe za Bogom, tj. nema potrebe da uvodimo pretpostavku da Bog postoji da bismo objasnili neki fenomen. Možda postoji čisto ljudska potreba za Bogom, ali to nije naučni problem (možda eventualno tema za psihologe). Taj naučni nedostatak potrebe za Bogom se potvrdio toliko puta da sada automatski isključujemo Boga kad se sretnemo s nečim trenutno neobjašnjivim. Krajnji zaključak je da ako se Bog toliko potrudio da nestane iz našeg sistema verovanja onda to treba i poštovati, i ne uzimati Njegovo ime uzalud :)

Naukom može da se dođe do zaključka da akupunktura daje bolje rezultate od klasične medicine tako što bi se dva metoda uporedila u eksperimentu. Ono što je bitnije je mehanizam akupunkture, a nauka nema odgovor na to. Dokle god ne znamo mehanizam nećemo moći ni da u potpunosti interpretiramo rezultate hipotetičkog eksperimenta. Šta ako akupunktura zapravo ima neku manu koja trenutno ne može da se uoči?

Spominjanje telepatije i telekineze su smešni. Gde su te telepate i "telekinezi"? Ja ih slabo nešto viđam po gradu. Zapravo, sve provere postojanja takvih fenomena, koje bi vodio neko specijalizovan za otkrivanje prevara, na kraju pokažu da je u pitanju i bila jel'te prevara.

Problem nauke nije u samoj nauci nego u naučnicima, koji su samo ljudi, tj. nikad savršeno objektivni, i često pomalo sujetni. Stvar je u tome što su ljudi u svim poljima i ideologijama takvi, tako da nauka nije neki izuzetak. I kao što za demokratiju važi da je najbolji politički sistem jer boljeg nemamo, tako je i nauka najbolja "ideologija" (ili šta već), jer bolje nema.

Paramecijum

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #9 on: 06-05-2007, 12:35:13 »
Pitanje Boga nije da li ga ima ili nema, pa je tako naučnim metodama nemoguće dokazati da ga nema; pitanje Boga je pitanje vere... ili veruješ ili ne veruješ. A njega svakako nema niti se može dokazati da ga nema. To je paradoks na kome religija opstaje milenijumima.

Demo(n)lisher

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #10 on: 07-05-2007, 18:51:17 »
Quote from: "Paramecijum"
Pitanje Boga nije da li ga ima ili nema, pa je tako naučnim metodama nemoguće dokazati da ga nema; pitanje Boga je pitanje vere... ili veruješ ili ne veruješ. A njega svakako nema niti se može dokazati da ga nema. To je paradoks na kome religija opstaje milenijumima.

Tacno. Ja smatram da je Isus bio odlican psihijatar. On je odlicno razumeo covekovu svest, sposobnost rasudjivanja i razuma i zbog toga je nametnuo cuveno religijsko pitanje : Da li postoji onaj svet? Da li cu ici u pakao ako celog zivota budem bio gresnik? Bolje da budem fini prema ljudima, jer se dobro vraca istom merom, kao i zlo. U ovaj milenijum smo zakoracili sa totalnom bezbostinom, anarhijom zahvaljujuci mnogim zanimljivim teorijama i praksom.
I`m a self - improved evil baby.

Ghoul

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #11 on: 07-05-2007, 19:03:41 »
Quote from: "Jimmy Conway"
U ovaj milenijum smo zakoracili sa totalnom bezbostinom, anarhijom zahvaljujuci mnogim zanimljivim teorijama i praksom.


TAKO JE!

FALI NAM RED, RAD I DISCIPLINA!

ZA KRALJA I OTADŽBINU!

DUH SVETOSAVLJA!

PROVERENE VREDNOSTI!

TRADICIJA!

Meho Krljic

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #12 on: 08-05-2007, 09:32:06 »
Fale nam malo i padeži...

Ghoul

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #13 on: 08-05-2007, 10:21:31 »
ja ovde vrlo svesno ideju 'RED, RAD I DISCIPLINA' tretiram kao jedan entitet (ako si na to mislio)

Meho Krljic

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #14 on: 08-05-2007, 10:25:23 »
Naravno da nisam, pobogu. Mislio sam na

Quote
zahvaljujuci mnogim zanimljivim teorijama i praksom.

Tex Murphy

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Hm...
« Reply #15 on: 08-05-2007, 12:35:16 »
Zavisi od konteksta. Ako dio rečenice stavimo u zagradu

Quote
(zahvaljujuci mnogim zanimljivim teorijama) i praksom.


ondak nema greške.

Merlin of Britain

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #16 on: 17-05-2007, 13:27:08 »
Quote from: "Paramecijum"
Pitanje Boga nije da li ga ima ili nema, pa je tako naučnim metodama nemoguće dokazati da ga nema; pitanje Boga je pitanje vere... ili veruješ ili ne veruješ. A njega svakako nema niti se može dokazati da ga nema. To je paradoks na kome religija opstaje milenijumima.


pazi, nauka (osim u socijalistickim zemljama) uglavnom ne osporava postojanje Boga. Cak sta vise, potreban joj je Veliki Arhitekta ili Prvi Pokretac. Ono sto se osporava je jedna od milion (ili sve) antropomorfnih predstava Boga koje su posledica usmenog i pismenog prenosenja ljudske spoznaje (i neznanja) o svetu putem gluvih generacijskih telefona tokom mnogo hiljada godina istorije.

Demo(n)lisher

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Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #17 on: 18-05-2007, 18:33:37 »
Quote from: "Merlin of Britain"
Quote from: "Paramecijum"
Pitanje Boga nije da li ga ima ili nema, pa je tako naučnim metodama nemoguće dokazati da ga nema; pitanje Boga je pitanje vere... ili veruješ ili ne veruješ. A njega svakako nema niti se može dokazati da ga nema. To je paradoks na kome religija opstaje milenijumima.


pazi, nauka (osim u socijalistickim zemljama) uglavnom ne osporava postojanje Boga. Cak sta vise, potreban joj je Veliki Arhitekta ili Prvi Pokretac. Ono sto se osporava je jedna od milion (ili sve) antropomorfnih predstava Boga koje su posledica usmenog i pismenog prenosenja ljudske spoznaje (i neznanja) o svetu putem gluvih generacijskih telefona tokom mnogo hiljada godina istorije.

Hm to je kao u knjizi o Nikoletini Bursacu, kad mladi (partizanski) delija objasnjava svojim bliznjima da Bog vise ne postoji, zbog jednog jednostavnog razloga : "Komandir je rekao da Svemoguceg vise nema".
I`m a self - improved evil baby.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #18 on: 29-08-2010, 17:25:40 »
Nauka jeste ideologija.

Samim tim što upravlja našim životom ona je ideologija.

npr pronađu pacijentu da ima srčanu aritmiju zbog koje može da umre u sljedećih 5 godina ako ne pije neke tablete.

Ako se zapitaš zašto bi pio te tablete oni će da te pogledaju kao budalu.

Ti nemaš slobodu da izabereš da ne piješ te tablete.

Reći će ti da je svaki život SVET, ali naučno neće moći dokazati da ti moraš da popiješ te tablete.

Upravo tu je nauka ideologija, čak i religija.

Ona može pronaći srčanu manu ( ustvari to je samo u nauci mana, a u stvarnosti je meso kao i ostatak tijela) ali sama priča da ti moraš da ispraviš tu manu je ideološka.

To ne znači da treba odbaciti nauku, ali je ni ne tretirati kao svetu kravu.

Je li ono Amenabar snimio film o čovjeku koji je propagirao pravo da se ubiješ?
Paradoksalno, nenormalno, ludo, ali slobodno.
S druge strane može biti razumno, naučno, istinito, ali totalitarno i zarobljavajuće.

Father Jape

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #19 on: 30-08-2010, 14:04:04 »
To sto ce ti reci da 'moras' da pobijes tabletu odnosno 'ispravis' manu nema ama bas nikakve veze s naukom.

To jeste ideologija. Nauka, onako kako sam ja mislio do pre pet minuta da je na planeti Zemlji shvataju, kao sto rekoh, nema ama bas nikakve veze s tim.

Za to o cemu ti pricas, sto svakako postoji, ce ti biti potrebna nova rec, bojim se.  :lol:
Blijedi čovjek na tragu pervertita.
To je ta nezadrživa napaljenost mladosti.
Dušman u odsustvu Dušmana.

Loni

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #20 on: 30-08-2010, 14:50:01 »
Istina i nauka ne mogu biti ideologije.

Problem je u tome što čovek nikada ne može saznati apsolutnu istinu i apsolutno spoznati nauku.
A ako spozna nešto i samo 90 % može izvući pogrešan zaključak, koji eventualno može proizvesti i pogrešnu ideologiju.

Vrlo je interesantnao pitanje da li je čovek bez religije bolji ili gori.
Moguće je da postoje ljudi, koji ne otimaju, ne tuku i ne ponižavaju samo zbog straha od boga.
Neko to neće raditi jer oseća empatiju jer ne uživa da drugima u njegovoj okolini bude loše.
Drugi pak nemaju taj osećaj empatije pa će se suzdržati samo zbog straha o boga ili kosmičke pravde, koja će ih jednom stići.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #21 on: 30-08-2010, 15:26:57 »
To sto ce ti reci da 'moras' da pobijes tabletu odnosno 'ispravis' manu nema ama bas nikakve veze s naukom.

To jeste ideologija. Nauka, onako kako sam ja mislio do pre pet minuta da je na planeti Zemlji shvataju, kao sto rekoh, nema ama bas nikakve veze s tim.

itekako ima, jer ona propagira ideal poželjnog (zdravog) tijela.

To nema veze sa tm da li je istina da ova ili ona terapija funkcioniše, pa u tome je i poenta ideologije.

Ona se i predstavlja kao nešto sasvim prirodno i normalno.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #22 on: 30-08-2010, 15:31:35 »
Nemam vremena da nešto ozbiljnije doprinesem, ali nauka je pre svega disciplina, dakle sistematizovano ponašanje. U tom smislu ona se naravno može proglasiti ideologijom i uvek se koreni te ideologije daju trasirati do temeljnih vrednosti koje nauka - iako propituje sve drugo - ne dovodi u pitanje. Logika, na primer je temeljna vrednost većine (svih?) nauka. Kauzalnost takođe itd. Možda nauka onda eksplicitno postaje ideologija ako dovedemo u pitanje te temeljne principe? Ajnštajn je između ostalog bio upamćen po užasnutom kriku kako se Bog valjda ne igra bacajući kockice kada se upoznao sa principima kvantne mehanike. To je prilično ideološka reakcija.

Father Jape

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #23 on: 30-08-2010, 15:58:17 »
itekako ima, jer ona propagira ideal poželjnog (zdravog) tijela.


First time I'm hearing about it.
Blijedi čovjek na tragu pervertita.
To je ta nezadrživa napaljenost mladosti.
Dušman u odsustvu Dušmana.

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #24 on: 30-08-2010, 16:04:30 »
Ajnštajn je između ostalog bio upamćen po užasnutom kriku kako se Bog valjda ne igra bacajući kockice kada se upoznao sa principima kvantne mehanike. To je prilično ideološka reakcija.

Mnogo veći ispad mu je bio kad je uveo kosmološku konstantu da našteluje jednačinu opšte teorije relativiteta da bi održao statički svemir. A onda se saznalo da se svemir širi :-)

A što se tiče Boga i kockica, Ajnštajn nije opovrgavao model kvantne mehanike, nego je smatrao da taj model nije kompletan (u istom smislu u kome se danas recimo smatra da Darvinova teorija evolucije ne objašnjava baš sve u vezi sa evolucijom, niti da je Frojd objasnio sve u vezi sa psihom). S tim u vezi Ajnštajn je sa još dva naučnika formulisao misaoni paradoks (EPR paradoks) koji je trebao da ukaže na nekompletnost modela kvantne mehanike. To im nije uspelo, jer su imali pogrešnu polaznu pretpostavku da svet nije paradoksalan. Eksperimentalno je utvrđeno da jeste :-)

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #25 on: 30-08-2010, 16:10:00 »
Znači sve sam u pravu što sam rekao!!!!

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #26 on: 30-08-2010, 16:33:17 »
Pa da. A moguće je i da nam samo treba drugi fizički model.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #27 on: 30-08-2010, 17:00:57 »
itekako ima, jer ona propagira ideal poželjnog (zdravog) tijela.


First time I'm hearing about it.

ne znam šta ima tu da se čuje, postoje udžbenici ljudske anatomije, i ako imaš tri kosti tamo gdje su dvije ili tri bubrega - ti si sa medicinskog stanovišta anomalija. U udžbeniku tačno piše kako treba da izgleda neki organ.

Isto kao što u političkom programu neke partije piše kakva treba biti fiskalna ili neka druga politika.

Father Jape

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #28 on: 30-08-2010, 17:06:40 »
Ne. Nauka po definiciji ne donosi value judgement. Nauka je ono sto ce ti reci da toliki i toliki procenat ljudi ima dve kosti a toliki tri, na tom i tom mestu.

A ako neko hoce da ima negativan stav oko toga, i pokusa da 'ispravi', to je potpuno druga stvar.

Nauka je u biti dispassionate i disinterested. Ako pocnes da navijas vise nisi naucnik. Onda si neko ko koristi saznanja koja ti je nauka obezbedila u korist svoje ideologije, ma sta ona bila.
Blijedi čovjek na tragu pervertita.
To je ta nezadrživa napaljenost mladosti.
Dušman u odsustvu Dušmana.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #29 on: 30-08-2010, 17:07:22 »
Albedo, mislim da malo pojednostavljuješ stvari. Anomalija si ali ne u ideološkom smislu. Ovde se radi o funkcijama i nekakvoj efikasnosti u delanju. Mislim da bi mnogo efektniji primer bilo isticanje kako su osobe koje žive sa određenim poremećajima na mentalnom planu isključene iz političkog i socijalnog života jer nauka insistira da nisu sposobni za donošenje samostalnih odluka koje su prihvatljive sa stanovišta zajednice. Tu bi već bilo materijala za potezanje ideologije.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #30 on: 30-08-2010, 17:30:46 »
Нешто гледам овај топик, али веселије је да читам него да пишем. xjestera
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Father Jape

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #31 on: 30-08-2010, 17:31:49 »
Da, ali i tu - nauka je ta koja bi pokusala da utvrdi koliko su sposobni za sta, a politicari ti koji bi odlucili koga iskljucuju iz cega i zasto.

Drustvo u kome ne bi bili iskljuceni ni iz cega ne bi odjednom bilo 'manje naucno' drustvo, zar ne?
Blijedi čovjek na tragu pervertita.
To je ta nezadrživa napaljenost mladosti.
Dušman u odsustvu Dušmana.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #32 on: 30-08-2010, 17:52:21 »
Albedo, mislim da malo pojednostavljuješ stvari. Anomalija si ali ne u ideološkom smislu. Ovde se radi o funkcijama i nekakvoj efikasnosti u delanju. Mislim da bi mnogo efektniji primer bilo isticanje kako su osobe koje žive sa određenim poremećajima na mentalnom planu isključene iz političkog i socijalnog života jer nauka insistira da nisu sposobni za donošenje samostalnih odluka koje su prihvatljive sa stanovišta zajednice. Tu bi već bilo materijala za potezanje ideologije.

tu bi ideologija bila samo najjasnija i najjača. ALi ne može se za nešto reći da jeste ili nije ideološko već da je manje ili više ideološko (kao što reče Jape, društvo koje uključuje sve nije ništa manje ideološko)

Samostalne odluke su sasvim proste odluke, tipa da li ćeš da jedeš prasetinu ili ne. Zamisli da ti pune glavom pričama o holesterolu ili salmoneli, već ti nije toliko ukusna, zar ne?

Nama su mngoe stvari čudne jer mi još nismo stvarno ''naučno'' društvo.

Npr, negdje sam pročitao da je najzdravije za muškarca da se obreže, kao bolja higijena, uopšte zdravije i tome slično. Ti imaš tu informaciju ali sam odlučuješ šta ćeš sa njom (e moj Meho :)

Ali u Americi je to odavno ''neslobodna'' odluka, naime, skoro 80% je osunećeno, iako je velika većina WASPovaca. Možda samo neki hardcore južnjaci i nacisti još nisu osunećeni.
To kod nas tek treba da dođe u vidu nekog pomodarskog diskursa o zdravom životu i tome slično.

Dakle nama su neke stvari nezamislive ali one se odavno masovno praktikuju u Americi.

nije to samo pitanje nekog čovjeka slona koga treba primiti u društvo





trebali bi pitati Warlocka da li mu je onaj Žikin model osunećen, pošto kažu da je 99% glumaca odavno to uradilo :lol:

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #33 on: 30-08-2010, 18:30:09 »
Jasno je da ja ne jedem prasetinu u okviru svoje ishrane koja ne uključuje nikakvo meso.

No. Ovde je sad pitanje koliko je nauka sama po sebi ideološka a koliko se njeni operativni rezultati instrumentalizuju od strane društva, odnosno donosilaca odluka u društvu. Na primer, nauka već decenijama tvrdi da je duvan štetan po respiratorne organe, plod u trudnoći, potenciju itd., ali tek se u poslednjih par decenija može primetiti ozbiljan društveni pritisak na industriju i kulturu od nje zavisnu. Nauka nije (značajno) promenila svoje stanovište o duvanu ali društvo jeste.

U Hitlerovoj Njemačkoj nauka je bila silno instrumentalizovana a naučnici su naučno dokazivali superiornost jedne rase u odnosu na drugu itd. što je podupiralo ideologiju na vlasti. Ipak, ideologija na stranu, nalazi te i takve nauke danas bi trebalo da se prihvataju ili odbacuju samo na osnovu toga jesu li ti nalazi dokazivi u ponovljenim postupcima itd. Problem je u osetljivosti materije, dakako. Sličan primer su klimatske promene & njima odnosno globalno zagrevanje. Veli se da nauka potvrđuje tezu o globalnom zagrevanju kao posledici industrijskog zagađenja, no prošle godine je isplivala prepiska između naučnika koji se ovim problemom intenzivno bave iz koje se dalo zaključiti da su određeni rezultati koji ne govore u prilog ovoj priči sklanjani u stranu i prećutkivani. Ovde je ponovo nauka u službi određene ideološke matrice ali je li sama po sebi ideologija?

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #34 on: 30-08-2010, 20:14:40 »
poenta je: zašto bi nauka uopšte istraživala uticaj duvana na zdravlje?

Ko je to odredio duvan (otrov) i zdravlje kao naučne kategorije? Te kategorije su ideološke.


Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #35 on: 30-08-2010, 20:19:28 »
Dobro, ali zašto bi istraživala uticaj praseta nas zdravlje? Zato što su i prase i duvan praksa. Slažem se da postoji ideološka pozadina u korenu određivanja mete istraživanja ali to je ipak neka najšira ideologija funkcionalnosti jedinkeu zajednici i zajednice kao celine itd. No to mi se čini kao preplitka tema za istraživanje i slutim da ti želiš nešto dublje da grizeš.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #36 on: 30-08-2010, 20:30:25 »
nije neka velika filozofija reći da nauka služi nečijim interesima, vojnim kad treba da se rascijepa atom i napravi bomba za Hirošimu, ili zdravstveni kada buržuji žele da što kasnije (a po mogućstvu i nikad) dobiju bore.

Jedan rođak je išao na specijalizaciju u Norvešku i tamo vidio da mnogi dovode svoje male ćerke na jahanje ponija ili konja, prosto je bilo opšte popularno. Jedan norveški ljekar mu je objasnio da to rade da bi im se raširila karlica, što je ideal klasične ljepote (stara ženska oblina koju npr Anđelina Džoli nema i nikad ne može biti stvarna seks bomba, a samim tim što me realnost pobija i mnogi balave nad njom, dokaz je da su muškarci sve više pederasti, onako kako je Edgar Moren govorio, prvo se koncentrišu na lijepo žensko lice, a nakon toga tijelo može biti i muško. Žensko lice je samo posredni fetiš oji vodi ka homoseksualizmu).

I ne samo radi širenja karlice već i zato što olakšava porođaj.

Nije to plitak ugriz, ovo nam govori da su mnoge naše predstave o polovima svojevrsna mitomanija, neka definicija ''ženskog'', kalup u koji osoba sa vaginom mora da se uklopi.

Father Jape

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #37 on: 31-08-2010, 11:57:04 »
Pa da, meni je Angelina neprivlacna u licu, a telo svakako treba da bude sto manje zenstveno.  :lol:
Blijedi čovjek na tragu pervertita.
To je ta nezadrživa napaljenost mladosti.
Dušman u odsustvu Dušmana.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #38 on: 02-02-2012, 11:04:38 »
Koga ne mrzi da čita, Wired ima jako dugačku meditaciju Jonaha Leherera o tome zašto nas nauka izdaje
 
 Trials and errors: Why science is failing us
Quote

On November 30, 2006, executives at Pfizer -- the largest pharmaceutical company in the world -- held a meeting with investors at the firm's research centre in Groton, Connecticut. Jeff Kindler, then the CEO, began the presentation with an upbeat assessment of the company's efforts to bring new drugs to market. He cited "exciting approaches" to the treatment of Alzheimer's disease, fibromyalgia and arthritis. But Kindler was most excited about a new drug called torcetrapib, which had recently entered Phase III clinical trials, the last step before filing for approval. He confidently declared that it would be "one of the most important compounds of our generation".
His enthusiasm was understandable: the potential market for the drug was enormous. Like Pfizer's blockbuster medication Lipitor -- the most widely prescribed branded pharmaceutical in America -- torcetrapib was designed to tweak the cholesterol pathway (in the UK, simvastatin is the most-prescribed, and serves a similar function). Lipitor works by inhibiting an enzyme that plays a key role in the production of cholesterol in the liver. The drug lowers the level of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) or so-called bad cholesterol. Recently, scientists have begun to focus on a separate part of the cholesterol pathway, the one that produces high-density lipoproteins (HDL). One function of HDL (referred to as "good cholesterol") is to transport excess LDL back to the liver, where it's broken down. Torcetrapib was designed to block a protein that converts HDL cholesterol into its sinister sibling, LDL. In theory, this would cure cholesterol problems, creating a surplus of the good stuff and a shortage of the bad. In his presentation, Kindler noted that torcetrapib had the potential to "redefine cardiovascular treatment".
There was a vast amount of research behind Kindler's bold proclamations. The cholesterol pathway is one of the best-understood biological feedback systems in the human body. Since 1913, when Russian pathologist Nikolai Anichkov first experimentally linked cholesterol to the build-up of plaque in arteries, scientists have mapped out the metabolism and transport of these compounds in exquisite detail. Torcetrapib had already undergone a small clinical trial, which showed that the drug could increase HDL and decrease LDL. Kindler told investors that, by the second half of 2007, Pfizer would begin applying for approval from the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA). The success of the drug seemed a sure thing. And then, just two days later, on December 2, 2006, Pfizer issued a stunning announcement: the torcetrapib Phase III clinical trial was being terminated. Although the compound was supposed to prevent heart disease, it was actually triggering higher rates of chest pain and heart failure and a 60 per cent increase in overall mortality. The drug appeared to be killing people. That week, Pfizer's value plummeted by $21 billion (£14 billion).
***
The story of torcetrapib is one of mistaken causation. Pfizer was operating on the assumption that raising levels of HDL cholesterol and lowering LDL would lead to a predictable outcome: improved cardiovascular health. Less arterial plaque. Cleaner pipes. But that didn't happen. Such failures occur all the time in the drug industry. (According to a recent analysis, more than 40 per cent of drugs fail Phase III clinical trials.) And yet there is something particularly disturbing about the failure of torcetrapib. After all, a bet on this compound wasn't supposed to be risky. For Pfizer, torcetrapib was the pay-off after decades of research. Little wonder that the company was so confident about its clinical trials, which involved 25,000 volunteers. Pfizer invested more than $1 billion (£650 million) in the development of the drug and $90 million (£58.33 million) to expand the factory that would manufacture the compound. Because scientists understood the individual steps of the cholesterol pathway at such a precise level, they assumed they also understood how it worked as a whole.
This assumption -- that understanding a system's constituent parts means we also understand the causes within the system -- is not limited to the pharmaceutical industry or even to biology. It defines modern science. In general, we believe that the so-called problem of causation can be cured by more information. Scientists refer to this process as reductionism. By breaking down a process, we can see how everything fits together; the complex mystery is distilled into a list of ingredients. And so the question of cholesterol's relationship to heart disease becomes a predictable loop of proteins tweaking proteins, acronyms altering one another. Modern medicine is particularly reliant on this approach. Every year, nearly $100 billion is invested in biomedical research in the US, all of it aimed at teasing apart the invisible bits of the body. In Europe, that figure is estimated to be at least €17 billion (£15bn). We assume that these new details will finally reveal the causes of illness, pinning our maladies on small molecules and errant snippets of DNA. Once we find the cause, of course, we can begin working on a cure.
The problem with this assumption is that causes are a strange kind of knowledge. This was first pointed out by David Hume, the 18th-century philosopher. He realised that, although people talk about causes as if they are real facts -- tangible things that can be discovered -- they're actually not at all factual. Instead, Hume said, every cause is just a slippery story, a catchy conjecture, a "lively conception produced by habit". When an apple falls from a tree, the cause is obvious: gravity. Hume's sceptical insight was that we don't see gravity -- we see only an object tugged towards the earth. We look at X and then at Y, and invent a story about what happened in between. We can measure facts, but a cause is not a fact -- it's a fiction that helps us make sense of facts.
The truth is, our stories about causation are shadowed by all sorts of mental short cuts. Most of the time, these work well enough. They allow us to discover the law of gravity, and design wondrous technologies. However, when it comes to reasoning about complex systems -- say, the human body -- these short cuts go from being slickly efficient to outright misleading. Consider a set of classic experiments designed by Belgian psychologist Albert Michotte, first conducted in the 40s. His research featured a series of short films about a blue ball and a red ball. In the first film, the red ball races across the screen, touches the blue ball and then stops. The blue ball, meanwhile, begins moving in the same basic direction as the red ball. When Michotte asked people to describe the film, they automatically lapsed into the language of causation. The red ball hit the blue ball, which caused it to move. This is known as the launching effect, and it's a universal property of visual perception. Although there was nothing about causation in the two-second film -- it was just a montage of animated images -- people couldn't help but tell a story about what had happened. They translated their perceptions into causal beliefs. Michotte then began subtly manipulating the films, asking the subjects how the new footage changed their description of events. For instance, when he introduced a one-second pause between the movement of the balls, the impression of causality disappeared. The red ball no longer appeared to trigger the movement of the blue ball. Rather, the two balls were moving for inexplicable reasons.
Michotte would go on to conduct more than 100 of these studies. Sometimes he would have a small blue ball move in front of a big red ball. When he asked subjects what was going on, they insisted that the red ball was "chasing" the blue ball. However, if a big red ball were moving in front of a little blue ball, the opposite occurred: the blue ball was "following" the red ball.
There are two lessons to be learned from these experiments. The first is that our theories about a particular cause and effect are inherently perceptual, infected by all the sensory cheats of vision. Hume was right that causes are never seen, only inferred, but the truth is we can't tell the difference. And so we look at moving balls and see causes, a melodrama of taps and collisions, chasing and fleeing.
The second lesson is that causal explanations are oversimplifications. This is what makes them useful -- they help us grasp the world at a glance. For instance, after watching the short films, people immediately settled on the most straightforward explanation for the ricocheting objects. Although this account felt true, the brain wasn't seeking the literal truth -- it just wanted a plausible story that didn't contradict observation. There's a fundamental mismatch between how the world works and how we think about the world.
The good news is that, in the centuries since Hume, scientists have mostly managed to work around this mismatch as they've continued to discover new cause-and-effect relationships at a blistering pace. This success is largely a tribute to the power of statistical correlation, which has allowed researchers to pirouette around the problem of causation. Though scientists constantly remind themselves that mere correlation is not causation, if a correlation is clear and consistent, then they typically assume a cause has been found -- that there really is some invisible association between the measurements.
But here's the bad news: the reliance on correlations has entered an age of diminishing returns. At least two major factors contribute to this trend. First, all of the easy causes have been found, which means that scientists are now forced to search for ever-subtler correlations, mining that mountain of facts for the tiniest of associations. Is that a new cause? Or just a statistical mistake? The line is getting finer; science is getting harder. Second -- and this is the biggie -- searching for correlations is a terrible way of dealing with the primary subject of much modern research: those complex networks at the centre of life.
While correlations help us track the relationship between independent measurements, such as the link between smoking and cancer, they are much less effective at making sense of systems in which the variables cannot be isolated. Such situations require that we understand every interaction before we can reliably understand any of them. Given the byzantine nature of biology, this can often be a daunting hurdle, requiring that researchers map not only the complete cholesterol pathway but also the ways in which it is plugged into other pathways. Unfortunately, we shrug off this dizzying intricacy, searching instead for the simplest of correlations. It's the cognitive equivalent of bringing a knife to a gunfight.
These troubling trends play out most vividly in the drug industry. Although modern pharmaceuticals are supposed to represent the practical pay-off of basic research, the R&D to discover a promising new compound now costs about 100 times more (inflation-adjusted) than it did in 1950. It also takes nearly three times as long. This trend shows no sign of letting up: industry forecasts suggest that once failures are taken into account, the average cost per approved molecule will top $3.8 billion (£2.46 million) by 2015. What's worse, even these "successful" compounds don't seem to be worth the investment. We are witnessing Moore's law in reverse.
This returns us to cholesterol, a compound whose scientific history reflects our tortured relationship with causes. At first, cholesterol was entirely bad; the correlations linked high levels of the substance with plaque. Years later, we realised that there were multiple kinds and that only LDL was bad. Then it became clear that HDL was more important than LDL, at least according to correlational studies and animal models. And now we don't really know what matters, since raising HDL levels with torcetrapib doesn't seem to help. Although we've mapped every known part of the chemical pathway, the causes that matter are still nowhere to be found. If this is progress, it's a peculiar kind.
Today, back pain is an epidemic. There's an 80 per cent chance that, at some point in your life, you'll suffer from it. There are so many moving parts in the back that doctors have always had difficulty figuring out what, exactly, was causing a person's pain. As a result, patients were typically sent home with a prescription for bed rest. This treatment was very effective. Even when nothing was done to the lower back, about 90 per cent of people with back pain got better within six weeks. The body healed itself, the inflammation subsided, the nerve relaxed.
For years, this hands-off approach remained the standard medical treatment. That all changed, however, with the introduction of magnetic-resonance imaging in the late 70s. These diagnostic machines use powerful magnets to generate stunningly detailed images of the body's interior. Within a few years, the MRI machine became a crucial diagnostic tool. The view afforded by MRI led to a new causal story: back pain was the result of abnormalities in the spinal discs, those supple buffers between the vertebrae. The MRIs certainly supplied bleak evidence: back pain was strongly correlated with seriously degenerated discs, which were in turn thought to cause inflammation of the local nerves. Consequently, doctors began administering epidurals to lessen the pain, and if it persisted they would surgically remove the damaged disc tissue.
But the vivid images were misleading. It turns out that disc abnormalities are typically not the cause of chronic back pain. The presence of such abnormalities is just as likely to be correlated with the absence of back problems, as a 1994 study published in The New England Journal of Medicine showed. The researchers imaged the spinal regions of 98 people with no back pain. Two-thirds of normal patients exhibited "serious problems" such as bulging or protruding tissue. In 38 per cent of these patients, the MRI revealed multiple damaged discs. But none of these people was in pain. The study concluded that, in most cases, "the discovery of a bulge or protrusion on an MRI scan in a patient with low back pain may frequently be coincidental".
This is not the way things are supposed to work. We assume that more information will make it easier to find the cause, that seeing the soft tissue of the back will reveal the source of the pain, or at least some useful correlations. Unfortunately, that often doesn't happen. Our habits of visual conclusion-jumping take over. All those extra details end up confusing us; the more we know, the less we seem to understand. The only solution for this mental flaw is to ignore a wealth of facts, even when the facts seem relevant. This is what's happening with the treatment of back pain: doctors are now encouraged not to order MRIs when making diagnoses.
The failure of torectrapib has not ended the development of new cholesterol medications -- the potential market is simply too huge. Although the compound is a sobering reminder that our causal beliefs are defined by their oversimplifications, that even the best-understood systems are still full of surprises, scientists continue to search for the magic pill that will make cardiovascular disease disappear. Ironically, the latest hyped treatment, a drug developed by Merck called anacetrapib, inhibits the exact same protein as did torcetrapib.
The initial results of the clinical trial, made public in November 2010, look promising. Unlike its chemical cousin, this compound doesn't appear to raise systolic blood pressure or cause heart attacks. (A larger clinical trial is under way to see whether the drug saves lives.) Nobody can conclusively explain why these two closely related compounds trigger such different outcomes or why, according to a 2010 analysis, high HDL levels might actually be dangerous for some people. We know so much about the cholesterol pathway, but we never seem to know what matters.
Chronic back pain also remains a mystery. Doctors have long assumed that there's a valid correlation between pain and physical artefacts -- a herniated disc, a sheared muscle, a pinched nerve -- yet there's a growing body of evidence suggesting the role of seemingly unrelated factors. A recent study published in the journal Spine concluded that minor physical trauma had virtually no relationship with disabling pain. Instead, the researchers found that a small subset of "nonspinal factors", such as depression and smoking, were most closely associated with episodes of pain. We keep trying to fix the back, but perhaps the back isn't what needs fixing. Perhaps we're searching for causes in the wrong place.
The same confusion afflicts so many of our most advanced causal stories. Hormone-replacement therapy was supposed to reduce the risk of heart attack in postmenopausal women -- oestrogen prevents inflammation in blood vessels -- but a series of recent clinical trials found that it did the opposite, at least among older women. (Oestrogen therapy was also supposed to ward off Alzheimer's, but that doesn't seem to work, either.) We were told that vitamin D supplements prevented bone loss in people with multiple sclerosis and that vitamin E supplements reduced cardiovascular disease. Neither turns out to be true.
Given the increasing difficulty of identifying and treating the causes of illness, it's not surprising that some companies have responded by abandoning research. Most recently, two giant firms, AstraZeneca and GlaxoSmithKline, announced that they were scaling back research into the brain. The organ is too complicated, too full of networks we don't comprehend. We live in a world in which everything is knotted together, an impregnable tangle of causes and effects. Even when a system is dissected into its basic parts, those parts are still influenced by a whirligig of forces we can't understand or haven't considered or don't think matter.
This doesn't mean that nothing can be known or that every causal story is problematic. Some explanations work better than others, which is why, thanks largely to improvements in public health, the average lifespan in the developed world continues to increase. Although our reliance on statistical correlations has strict constraints -- which limit modern research -- those correlations have managed to identify many essential risk factors, such as smoking and poor diet.
And yet, we must never forget that our causal beliefs are defined by their limitations. For too long, we've pretended that the old problem of causality can be cured by our shiny new knowledge. If only we devote more resources to research or dissect the system at a more fundamental level or search for ever more subtle correlations, we can discover how it all works. But a cause is not a fact, and it never will be; the things we can see will always be bracketed by what we cannot. And this is why, even when we know everything about everything, we'll still be telling stories about why it happened. It's mystery all the way down.

There are two lessons to be learned from these experiments. The first is that our theories about a particular cause and effect are inherently perceptual, infected by all the sensory cheats of vision. Hume was right that causes are never seen, only inferred, but the truth is we can't tell the difference. And so we look at moving balls and see causes, a melodrama of taps and collisions, chasing and fleeing.
The second lesson is that causal explanations are oversimplifications. This is what makes them useful -- they help us grasp the world at a glance. For instance, after watching the short films, people immediately settled on the most straightforward explanation for the ricocheting objects. Although this account felt true, the brain wasn't seeking the literal truth -- it just wanted a plausible story that didn't contradict observation. There's a fundamental mismatch between how the world works and how we think about the world.
The good news is that, in the centuries since Hume, scientists have mostly managed to work around this mismatch as they've continued to discover new cause-and-effect relationships at a blistering pace. This success is largely a tribute to the power of statistical correlation, which has allowed researchers to pirouette around the problem of causation. Though scientists constantly remind themselves that mere correlation is not causation, if a correlation is clear and consistent, then they typically assume a cause has been found -- that there really is some invisible association between the measurements.
But here's the bad news: the reliance on correlations has entered an age of diminishing returns. At least two major factors contribute to this trend. First, all of the easy causes have been found, which means that scientists are now forced to search for ever-subtler correlations, mining that mountain of facts for the tiniest of associations. Is that a new cause? Or just a statistical mistake? The line is getting finer; science is getting harder. Second -- and this is the biggie -- searching for correlations is a terrible way of dealing with the primary subject of much modern research: those complex networks at the centre of life.
While correlations help us track the relationship between independent measurements, such as the link between smoking and cancer, they are much less effective at making sense of systems in which the variables cannot be isolated. Such situations require that we understand every interaction before we can reliably understand any of them. Given the byzantine nature of biology, this can often be a daunting hurdle, requiring that researchers map not only the complete cholesterol pathway but also the ways in which it is plugged into other pathways. Unfortunately, we shrug off this dizzying intricacy, searching instead for the simplest of correlations. It's the cognitive equivalent of bringing a knife to a gunfight.
These troubling trends play out most vividly in the drug industry. Although modern pharmaceuticals are supposed to represent the practical pay-off of basic research, the R&D to discover a promising new compound now costs about 100 times more (inflation-adjusted) than it did in 1950. It also takes nearly three times as long. This trend shows no sign of letting up: industry forecasts suggest that once failures are taken into account, the average cost per approved molecule will top $3.8 billion (£2.46 million) by 2015. What's worse, even these "successful" compounds don't seem to be worth the investment. We are witnessing Moore's law in reverse.
This returns us to cholesterol, a compound whose scientific history reflects our tortured relationship with causes. At first, cholesterol was entirely bad; the correlations linked high levels of the substance with plaque. Years later, we realised that there were multiple kinds and that only LDL was bad. Then it became clear that HDL was more important than LDL, at least according to correlational studies and animal models. And now we don't really know what matters, since raising HDL levels with torcetrapib doesn't seem to help. Although we've mapped every known part of the chemical pathway, the causes that matter are still nowhere to be found. If this is progress, it's a peculiar kind.
 
Today, back pain is an epidemic. There's an 80 per cent chance that, at some point in your life, you'll suffer from it. There are so many moving parts in the back that doctors have always had difficulty figuring out what, exactly, was causing a person's pain. As a result, patients were typically sent home with a prescription for bed rest. This treatment was very effective. Even when nothing was done to the lower back, about 90 per cent of people with back pain got better within six weeks. The body healed itself, the inflammation subsided, the nerve relaxed.
For years, this hands-off approach remained the standard medical treatment. That all changed, however, with the introduction of magnetic-resonance imaging in the late 70s. These diagnostic machines use powerful magnets to generate stunningly detailed images of the body's interior. Within a few years, the MRI machine became a crucial diagnostic tool. The view afforded by MRI led to a new causal story: back pain was the result of abnormalities in the spinal discs, those supple buffers between the vertebrae. The MRIs certainly supplied bleak evidence: back pain was strongly correlated with seriously degenerated discs, which were in turn thought to cause inflammation of the local nerves. Consequently, doctors began administering epidurals to lessen the pain, and if it persisted they would surgically remove the damaged disc tissue.
But the vivid images were misleading. It turns out that disc abnormalities are typically not the cause of chronic back pain. The presence of such abnormalities is just as likely to be correlated with the absence of back problems, as a 1994 study published in The New England Journal of Medicine showed. The researchers imaged the spinal regions of 98 people with no back pain. Two-thirds of normal patients exhibited "serious problems" such as bulging or protruding tissue. In 38 per cent of these patients, the MRI revealed multiple damaged discs. But none of these people was in pain. The study concluded that, in most cases, "the discovery of a bulge or protrusion on an MRI scan in a patient with low back pain may frequently be coincidental".
This is not the way things are supposed to work. We assume that more information will make it easier to find the cause, that seeing the soft tissue of the back will reveal the source of the pain, or at least some useful correlations. Unfortunately, that often doesn't happen. Our habits of visual conclusion-jumping take over. All those extra details end up confusing us; the more we know, the less we seem to understand. The only solution for this mental flaw is to ignore a wealth of facts, even when the facts seem relevant. This is what's happening with the treatment of back pain: doctors are now encouraged not to order MRIs when making diagnoses.
The failure of torectrapib has not ended the development of new cholesterol medications -- the potential market is simply too huge. Although the compound is a sobering reminder that our causal beliefs are defined by their oversimplifications, that even the best-understood systems are still full of surprises, scientists continue to search for the magic pill that will make cardiovascular disease disappear. Ironically, the latest hyped treatment, a drug developed by Merck called anacetrapib, inhibits the exact same protein as did torcetrapib.
The initial results of the clinical trial, made public in November 2010, look promising. Unlike its chemical cousin, this compound doesn't appear to raise systolic blood pressure or cause heart attacks. (A larger clinical trial is under way to see whether the drug saves lives.) Nobody can conclusively explain why these two closely related compounds trigger such different outcomes or why, according to a 2010 analysis, high HDL levels might actually be dangerous for some people. We know so much about the cholesterol pathway, but we never seem to know what matters.
Chronic back pain also remains a mystery. Doctors have long assumed that there's a valid correlation between pain and physical artefacts -- a herniated disc, a sheared muscle, a pinched nerve -- yet there's a growing body of evidence suggesting the role of seemingly unrelated factors. A recent study published in the journal Spine concluded that minor physical trauma had virtually no relationship with disabling pain. Instead, the researchers found that a small subset of "nonspinal factors", such as depression and smoking, were most closely associated with episodes of pain. We keep trying to fix the back, but perhaps the back isn't what needs fixing. Perhaps we're searching for causes in the wrong place.
The same confusion afflicts so many of our most advanced causal stories. Hormone-replacement therapy was supposed to reduce the risk of heart attack in postmenopausal women -- oestrogen prevents inflammation in blood vessels -- but a series of recent clinical trials found that it did the opposite, at least among older women. (Oestrogen therapy was also supposed to ward off Alzheimer's, but that doesn't seem to work, either.) We were told that vitamin D supplements prevented bone loss in people with multiple sclerosis and that vitamin E supplements reduced cardiovascular disease. Neither turns out to be true.
Given the increasing difficulty of identifying and treating the causes of illness, it's not surprising that some companies have responded by abandoning research. Most recently, two giant firms, AstraZeneca and GlaxoSmithKline, announced that they were scaling back research into the brain. The organ is too complicated, too full of networks we don't comprehend. We live in a world in which everything is knotted together, an impregnable tangle of causes and effects. Even when a system is dissected into its basic parts, those parts are still influenced by a whirligig of forces we can't understand or haven't considered or don't think matter.
This doesn't mean that nothing can be known or that every causal story is problematic. Some explanations work better than others, which is why, thanks largely to improvements in public health, the average lifespan in the developed world continues to increase. Although our reliance on statistical correlations has strict constraints -- which limit modern research -- those correlations have managed to identify many essential risk factors, such as smoking and poor diet.
And yet, we must never forget that our causal beliefs are defined by their limitations. For too long, we've pretended that the old problem of causality can be cured by our shiny new knowledge. If only we devote more resources to research or dissect the system at a more fundamental level or search for ever more subtle correlations, we can discover how it all works. But a cause is not a fact, and it never will be; the things we can see will always be bracketed by what we cannot. And this is why, even when we know everything about everything, we'll still be telling stories about why it happened. It's mystery all the way down.
Jonah Lehrer is the author of Imagine: How Creativity Works (HMH), out in March.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #39 on: 29-08-2012, 10:18:17 »
Science, such a sweet mystery 
Quote

 By David P. Barash August 16, 2012  I have been teaching and doing research at the university level for more than 40 years, which means that for more than four decades, I have been participating in a deception — benevolent and well intentioned, to be sure, but a deception nonetheless. As a scientist, I do science, and as a teacher and writer, I communicate it. That's where the deception comes in.

When scientists speak to the public or to students, we talk about what we know, what science has discovered. Nothing wrong with this. After all, we work hard deciphering nature's secrets and we're proud whenever we succeed. But it gives the false impression that we know pretty much everything, whereas the reality is that there's a whole lot more that we don't know.

Teaching and writing only about what is known risks turning science into a mere catalog of established facts, suggesting that "knowing" science is a matter of memorizing: this is how cells metabolize carbohydrates, this is how natural selection works, this is how the information encoded in DNA is translated into proteins.

In my first college-level biology course, I was required to memorize all of the digestive enzymes and what they do. Even today, I can't stomach those darned chemicals, and I fear the situation is scarcely much better at most universities today.

Paradoxically, the strong point of American higher education — our talent as a nation vis-a-vis, say, China — is that we are supposed to be more open to innovation and original thinking, whereas they are more "into" rote learning. It is time, therefore, to start teaching courses, giving lectures and writing books about what we don't know about biology, chemistry, geology, physics, mathematics.

There's plenty to communicate because we are surrounded by mysteries, far more than are dreamt of in anyone's philosophy. But don't get the wrong idea, Horatio: Mystery is not the same as mysticism, and I'm not referring to some sort of ineffable, spiritualistic claptrap beyond the reach of natural law and human understanding. Just as "weeds" are plants that haven't yet been assigned a value, scientific mysteries are simply good questions waiting for answers.

I'm not thinking here of the obvious unknowns, such as "Is there life on other planets?" or "How many particles can dance on the head of the CERN accelerator?" Rather, there is plenty we don't know about the things we think we understand. Nor is this a problem or a momentary lack of closure. Science is altogether dynamic and wonderfully incomplete.

Looking just at my field, evolutionary biology, the unknowns are immense: How widespread are nonadaptive traits? To what extent does evolution proceed by very small, gradual steps versus larger, quantum jumps? Why does sexuality occur at all, since it is fully one-half as efficient in projecting genes into the future compared with its asexual alternative? What is the purpose of all that "junk DNA"? Did human beings evolve from a single lineage, or many times, independently? Why does homosexuality persist? Why do women — unique among mammals — conceal their ovulation, possess conspicuous nonlactating breasts and experience orgasm, as well as menopause? Why is the life span of men so much shorter than that of women? Why do we have such big brains? Why are we conscious? Why do we age, sleep, dream, blush, cry or yawn? This is but a partial list.

Don't be discouraged, however. "Mystics exult in mystery and want it to stay mysterious," writes Richard Dawkins. "Scientists exult in mystery for a different reason: It gives them something to do."

And we've got plenty to do. We might start by acknowledging our ignorance. We could then revel in the numerous hypotheses that have already been proposed to rectify that ignorance; there are, in fact, a dozen or so potential explanations for each of the mysteries listed above — we just don't know, yet, which ones are the most promising.

There is a difference between science as a body of knowledge and science as the pursuit of the unknown. Ideally, there would be no tension between the two because it's only by pursuing the unknown that we obtain knowledge. And yet, these two aspects of science coexist uneasily. This wasn't always the case.

Between 1751 and 1765, the Encyclopédie was published in France. It endeavored to summarize all human knowledge in its 18,000 pages of text, 75,000 different entries and 20 million words. Its primary editor, Denis Diderot, was one of the heroes of the Enlightenment, and indeed, the Encyclopédie represents a culmination of Enlightenment thought, which valued reason, science and progress — what we know — above all else.

It is paradoxical testimony to how much we have learned in the intervening 250 years that today no one could seriously entertain the prospect of summarizing all human knowledge in a book, or series of books, or even via the Internet. And yet, the temptation remains: to rest on our laurels, to celebrate our truly encyclopedic knowledge, to teach it, write it, speak it, learn it, demand that it be mastered as if what we know now is enough. (Or, worse yet, to glumly conclude that we have reached "the end of science.")

To be sure, we need to keep celebrating and transmitting what we know, but, at least as important, we had better keep our eyes on what we don't know if the scientific enterprise is to continue attracting new adherents who will keep pushing the envelope of our knowledge rather than resting satisfied within its cozy boundaries.

"There is a crack in everything," writes poet-songwriter Leonard Cohen. "That's how the light gets in."

David P. Barash is an evolutionary biologist and professor of psychology at the University of Washington; his most recent book is "Homo Mysterious: Evolutionary Puzzles of Human Nature." 

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #40 on: 21-10-2012, 08:47:32 »
Oh... naučni članak koji se bavi matematikom, a koga je napisao softver, kombinujući nasumične iskaze u gramatički ispravnim rečenicama prihvaćen od strane relativno male publikacije  :lol:
 
Mathgen paper accepted!
 
Quote

 
I’m pleased to announce that Mathgen has had its first randomly-generated paper accepted by a reputable journal!
 

On August 3, 2012, a certain Professor Marcie Rathke of the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople submitted a very interesting article to Advances in Pure Mathematics, one of the many fine journals put out by Scientific Research Publishing. (Your inbox and/or spam trap very likely contains useful information about their publications at this very moment!) This mathematical tour de force was entitled “Independent, Negative, Canonically Turing Arrows of Equations and Problems in Applied Formal PDE”, and I quote here its intriguing abstract:


 
Let ρ=A . Is it possible to extend isomorphisms? We show that D
is stochastically orthogonal and trivially affine. In [10], the main result was the construction of p -Cardano, compactly Erdős, Weyl functions. This could shed important light on a conjecture of Conway-d’Alembert.
The full text was kindly provided by the author and is available as PDF.
After a remarkable turnaround time of only 10 days, on August 13, 2012, the editors were pleased to inform Professor Rathke that her submission had been accepted for publication. I reproduce here (with Professor Rathke’s kind permission) the notification, which includes the anonymous referee’s report.

Dear Author, Thank you for your contribution to the Advances in Pure Mathematics (APM). We are pleased to inform you that your manuscript:
ID : 5300285
TITLE : Independent, negative, canonically Turing arrows of equations and problems in applied formal PDE
AUTHORS :Marcie Rathke
has been accepted. Congratulations!

Anyway, the manuscript has some flaws are required to be revised :
(1) For the abstract, I consider that the author can’t introduce the main idea and work of this topic specifically. We can’t catch the main thought from this abstract. So I suggest that the author can reorganize the descriptions and give the keywords of this paper.
(2) In this paper, we may find that there are so many mathematical expressions and notations. But the author doesn’t give any introduction for them. I consider that for these new expressions and notations, the author can indicate the factual meanings of them.
(3) In part 2, the author gives the main results. On theorem 2.4, I consider that the author should give the corresponding proof.
(4) Also, for proposition 3.3 and 3.4, the author has better to show the specific proving processes.
(5) The format of this paper is not very standard. Please follow the format requirements of this journal strictly.
Please revised your paper and send it to us as soon as possible.
 
The author has asked me to include her responses to the referee’s comments:
 
  • The referee’s objection is well taken; indeed, the abstract has not the slightest thing to do with the content of the paper.
  • The paper certainly does contain a plethora of mathematical notation, but it is to be hoped that readers with the appropriate background can infer its meaning (or lack thereof) from context.
  • It is indeed customary for a mathematical paper to contain a proof of its main result. This omission admittedly represents a slight flaw in the manuscript.
  • The author believes the proofs given for the referenced propositions are entirely sufficient [they read, respectively, "This is obvious" and "This is clear"]. However, she respects the referee’s opinion and would consider adding a few additional details.
  • On this point the author must strenuously object. The LA TE X formatting of the manuscript is perfectly standard and in accordance with generally accepted practice. The same cannot be said of APM’s required template, which uses Microsoft Word [!].
Professor Rathke is pleased that the referee nevertheless recommends the paper be accepted, since clearly these minor differences of opinion in no way affect the paper’s overall validity and significance. However, in spite of this good news, there is a mundane difficulty which will apparently prevent the article’s publication. As an open access journal, APM naturally imposes a “processing charge” on its authors, which for this paper would amount to US$500.00. Unfortunately, due to recent budgetary constraints at the U. of S.N.D. at H., Professor Rathke finds that her research funds are insufficient to meet this expense. It therefore appears that APM’s estimable readership, and the mathematical community at large, will sadly be deprived of seeing the fruits of Professor Rathke’s labor in print.
Bummer.

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #41 on: 21-10-2012, 10:31:46 »
bladi hel i horor!
al nije ni čudo imajuću u vidu overprodukciju kojekakvih casopisa, a da ne pominjem nekompetentnost velikog broja rivjuera.
hm, arogantno, nego kako!
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Mme Chauchat

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #42 on: 21-10-2012, 10:58:17 »
Hm, mislila sam da Sokal ne bi uspeo da se radilo o egzaktnoj nauci, a ono grešim? :(

Albedo 0

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #43 on: 21-10-2012, 11:31:13 »
o, pa vidim da sam ovdje svašta pametovao, ali i dalje sam u pravu  8)

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #44 on: 20-02-2014, 10:34:10 »
Mislim da je ovo pravi topik za ovakvu vest. Dakle, izvesna matematička teorema je dokazana putem postupka koji ne može da se smesti u manje od 13 gigabajta teksta pa je time praktično neproverljiv od strane ljudskih bića:


Wikipedia-size maths proof too big for humans to check

Quote
If no human can check a proof of a theorem, does it really count as mathematics? That's the intriguing question raised by the latest computer-assisted proof. It is as large as the entire content of Wikipedia, making it unlikely that will ever be checked by a human being.
"It might be that somehow we have hit statements which are essentially non-human mathematics," says Alexei Lisitsa of the University of Liverpool, UK, who came up with the proof together with colleague Boris Konev.
The proof is a significant step towards solving a long-standing puzzle known as the Erdős discrepancy problem. It was proposed in the 1930s by the Hungarian mathematician Paul Erdős, who offered $500 for its solution.
Imagine a random, infinite sequence of numbers containing nothing but +1s and -1s. Erdos was fascinated by the extent to which such sequences contain internal patterns. One way to measure that is to cut the infinite sequence off at a certain point, and then create finite sub-sequences within that part of the sequence, such as considering only every third number or every fourth.
Adding up the numbers in a sub-sequence gives a figure called the discrepancy, which acts as a measure of the structure of the sub-sequence and in turn the infinite sequence, as compared with a uniform ideal.
 Wikipedia-size proof Erdős thought that for any infinite sequence, it would always be possible to find a finite sub-sequence summing to a number larger than any you choose - but couldn't prove it.
It is relatively easy to show by hand that any way you arrange 12 pluses and minuses always has a sub-sequence whose sum exceeds 1. That means that anything longer – including any infinite sequence – must also have a discrepancy of 1 or more. But extending this method to showing that higher discrepancies must always exist is tough as the number of possible sub-sequences to test quickly balloons.
Now Konev and Lisitsa have used a computer to move things on. They have shown that an infinite sequence will always have a discrepancy larger than 2. In this case the cut-off was a sequence of length 1161, rather than 12. Establishing this took a computer nearly 6 hours and generated a 13-gigabyte file detailing its working.
The pair compare this to the size of Wikipedia, the text of which is a 10-gigabyte download. It is probably the longest proof ever: it dwarfs another famously huge proof, which involves 15,000 pages of calculations.
It would take years to check the computer's working – and extending the method to check for yet higher discrepancies might easily produce proofs that are simply too long to be checked by humans. But that raises an interesting philosophical question, says Lisitsa: can a proof really be accepted if no human reads it?
 Non-human mathematics Gil Kalai of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel, says human checking isn't necessary for a proof to stand. "I'm not concerned by the fact that no human mathematician can check this, because we can check it with other computer approaches," he says. If a computer program using a different method comes up with the same result, then the proof is likely to be right.
Kalai was part of a group that decided in 2010 to work on the problem as a Polymath project, an exercise in which mathematicians use blogs and wikis to collaborate on a large scale. Running different software, the group managed to test a sequence of length 1124 – close to the threshold Konev and Lisitsa have now shown was necessary – but gave up when the program wouldn't scale to higher numbers.
When it comes to the Erdős discrepancy problem, there is still some hope for humans, however. Erdős's hypothesis was that a discrepancy of any value can always be found, a far cry from the discrepancies of 1 and 2 that have now been proven. Lisitsa's software has been running for weeks in an attempt to find a result for discrepancy 3. But even if subsequent programs show that higher and higher discrepancies exist for any infinite sequence, a computer cannot check the infinity of all numbers.
Instead, it's likely that computer-assisted proofs for specific discrepancies will eventually enable a human to spot a pattern and come up with a proof for all numbers, says Lisitsa. "The outstanding problems are like lighthouses; they give us targets for our abilities," adds Kalai.
Reference: arxiv.org/abs/1402.2184

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #45 on: 09-03-2014, 07:47:16 »
Da li se ikada može smatrati da je nauka po nekom pitanju došla do finalnog zaključka o kome nikad više ne treba raspravljati?

 Can Science Ever Be “Settled”?

Ovi sa medium.com su dohakali mom kompulzivnom kopipejstovanju time što su im tekstovi prepuni ilustracija. Kliknuti na link i čitati.

Dzorig FSB

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #46 on: 10-03-2014, 11:26:38 »
Наука "по дефиницији" никад није дошла до финалног закључка, теоретски је увек могуће побити новим подацима било коју теорију. Зато ја кажем креационистима - докажите и стајем у ред да вам честитам Нобела. Осим математике, једном ваљан математички доказ важи заувек! Е сад, шта му значи то "да ли треба"? xrotaeye Ти можеш претпоставити да је нека прича завршена, па није рационално трошити ресурсе (менталне и остале) на исправљање кривих дрина... Мада постоји могућност да се и ту докаже супротно.

Занимљив је почетни текст. Рецимо, избор слобода или истина... Подсетиме како су детерминисти мирили свој став са слободом. По Спинози слободнији си кад је нешто сигурно, "слобода је спозната нужност". Дакле, кад се нешто више не може изменити, спокојан си и ослобођен брига. По Лајбницу слободнији си баш кад не знаш како је одређено, јер онда различита твоја дејства имају различите последице. Што не значи да треба бити глуп, јербо што више знаш, више и знаш да не знаш...

Развод државе и науке мало је могућ баш због проклетих резултата. Уосталом, црква и држава се нису развеле докле им је брак давао резултате  :mrgreen:

А демократија? Систем у којем 10 дегенерика надгласа 6 генијалаца. Нека хвала...

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #47 on: 18-03-2014, 10:21:22 »
Billionaires With Big Ideas Are Privatizing American Science



Quote
Last April, President Obama assembled some of the nation’s most august scientific dignitaries in the East Room of the White House. Joking that his grades in physics made him a dubious candidate for “scientist in chief,” he spoke of using technological innovation “to grow our economy” and unveiled “the next great American project”: a $100 million initiative to probe the mysteries of the human brain.
Along the way, he invoked the government’s leading role in a history of scientific glories, from putting a man on the moon to creating the Internet. The Brain initiative, as he described it, would be a continuation of that grand tradition, an ambitious rebuttal to deep cuts in federal financing for scientific research.
“We can’t afford to miss these opportunities while the rest of the world races ahead,” Mr. Obama said. “We have to seize them. I don’t want the next job-creating discoveries to happen in China or India or Germany. I want them to happen right here.”



Absent from his narrative, though, was the back story, one that underscores a profound change taking place in the way science is paid for and practiced in America. In fact, the government initiative grew out of richly financed private research: A decade before, Paul G. Allen, a co-founder of Microsoft, had set up a brain science institute in Seattle, to which he donated $500 million, and Fred Kavli, a technology and real estate billionaire, had then established brain institutes at Yale, Columbia and the University of California. Scientists from those philanthropies, in turn, had helped devise the Obama administration’s plan.
American science, long a source of national power and pride, is increasingly becoming a private enterprise.
In Washington, budget cuts have left the nation’s research complex reeling. Labs are closing. Scientists are being laid off. Projects are being put on the shelf, especially in the risky, freewheeling realm of basic research. Yet from Silicon Valley to Wall Street, science philanthropy is hot, as many of the richest Americans seek to reinvent themselves as patrons of social progress through science research.
The result is a new calculus of influence and priorities that the scientific community views with a mix of gratitude and trepidation.
“For better or worse,” said Steven A. Edwards, a policy analyst at the American Association for the Advancement of Science, “the practice of science in the 21st century is becoming shaped less by national priorities or by peer-review groups and more by the particular preferences of individuals with huge amounts of money.”
They have mounted a private war on disease, with new protocols that break down walls between academia and industry to turn basic discoveries into effective treatments. They have rekindled traditions of scientific exploration by financing hunts for dinosaur bones and giant sea creatures. They are even beginning to challenge Washington in the costly game of big science, with innovative ships, undersea craft and giant telescopes — as well as the first private mission to deep space.
The new philanthropists represent the breadth of American business, people like Michael R. Bloomberg, the former New York mayor (and founder of the media company that bears his name), James Simons (hedge funds) and David H. Koch (oil and chemicals), among hundreds of wealthy donors. Especially prominent, though, are some of the boldest-face names of the tech world, among them Bill Gates (Microsoft), Eric E. Schmidt (Google) and Lawrence J. Ellison (Oracle). Continue reading the main story This is philanthropy in the age of the new economy — financed with its outsize riches, practiced according to its individualistic, entrepreneurial creed. The donors are impatient with the deliberate, and often politicized, pace of public science, they say, and willing to take risks that government cannot or simply will not consider.
Yet that personal setting of priorities is precisely what troubles some in the science establishment. Many of the patrons, they say, are ignoring basic research — the kind that investigates the riddles of nature and has produced centuries of breakthroughs, even whole industries — for a jumble of popular, feel-good fields like environmental studies and space exploration.
As the power of philanthropic science has grown, so has the pitch, and the edge, of the debate. Nature, a family of leading science journals, has published a number of wary editorials, one warning that while “we applaud and fully support the injection of more private money into science,” the financing could also “skew research” toward fields more trendy than central.
“Physics isn’t sexy,” William H. Press, a White House science adviser, said in an interview. “But everybody looks at the sky.”
Fundamentally at stake, the critics say, is the social contract that cultivates science for the common good. They worry that the philanthropic billions tend to enrich elite universities at the expense of poor ones, while undermining political support for federally sponsored research and its efforts to foster a greater diversity of opportunity — geographic, economic, racial — among the nation’s scientific investigators.
Historically, disease research has been particularly prone to unequal attention along racial and economic lines. A look at major initiatives suggests that the philanthropists’ war on disease risks widening that gap, as a number of the campaigns, driven by personal adversity, target illnesses that predominantly afflict white people — like cystic fibrosis, melanoma and ovarian cancer.
Public money still accounts for most of America’s best research, as well as its remarkable depth and diversity. What is unclear is how far or fast that balance is shifting, since no one, either in or out of government, has been comprehensively tracking the magnitude and impact of private science. In recognition of its rising profile, though, the National Science Foundation recently announced plans to begin surveying the philanthropic landscape.
There are the skeptics. Then there are the former skeptics, people like Martin A. Apple, a biochemist and former head of the Council of Scientific Society Presidents.



Initially, Dr. Apple said, he, too, saw the donors as superrich dabblers. Now he believes that they are helping accelerate the overall pace of science. What changed his mind, he said, was watching them persevere, year after year, in pursuit of highly ambitious goals.
“They target polio and go after it until it’s done — no one else can do that,” he said, referring to the global drive to eradicate the disease. “In effect, they have the power to lead where the market and the political will are insufficient.”
And their impact seems likely to grow, given continuing federal budget wars and their enormous wealth. Indeed, a New York Times analysis shows that the 40 or so richest science donors who have signed a pledge to give most of their fortunes to charity have assets surpassing a quarter-trillion dollars.
There are also signs of a growing awareness, among some philanthropists, that this influence brings a responsibility to address some of the criticisms leveled at them. Last year, a coalition of leading science foundations announced a campaign to double private spending on basic research over a decade — to $5 billion a year — as a counterweight to money rushing into health and other popular fields. Continue reading the main story “Today, federal funding of basic research is on the decline,” the group said. “The best hope for near-term change lies with American philanthropy.”
A New Template
When Mr. Ellison, chief executive of the Oracle Corporation, heard a Nobel laureate biologist give a talk at Stanford about artificial intelligence, he was mesmerized. It was the early 1990s, and the idea of applying fast computers to genetic riddles was new. “I had never experienced anything like it,” Mr. Ellison recalled.
He invited the scientist, Joshua Lederberg of Rockefeller University, to visit him at his California estate. The visit went so well that Mr. Ellison handed the scientist a key to the house and asked him to think of it as his second home. Dr. Lederberg took him up on the offer, and over many dinners in what he would call “the most gorgeous setting in the world” — complete with Japanese teahouse, strolling gardens and ponds of ornamental fish — the men discussed many things, from Mr. Ellison’s early interest in molecular biology to the idea that great wealth can do great good.
In 1997, the friendship gave birth to the Ellison Medical Foundation. Hundreds of biologists have benefited from its patronage, and three have won Nobel Prizes. So far, Mr. Ellison, listed by Forbes magazine as the world’s fifth-richest man, has donated about half a billion dollars to science.
It’s not that Mr. Ellison is the biggest or most visible of the philanthropists. (That distinction probably belongs to Bill Gates, who has donated roughly $10 billion for global public health.) But his work is very much a template for the new private science.
In the traditional world of government-sponsored research, at agencies like the National Science Foundation and the National Institutes of Health, panels of experts pore over grant applications to decide which ones get financed, weighing such factors as intellectual merit and social value. At times, groups of distinguished experts weigh in on how to advance whole fields, recommending, for instance, the construction of large instruments and laboratories costing billions of dollars.
By contrast, the new science philanthropy is personal, antibureaucratic, inspirational.
For Wendy Schmidt, the inspiration came in 2009, from a coral reef in the Grenadine islands of the Caribbean. It was her first scuba dive, and it opened her eyes to the riot of nature.
She talked it over with her husband, Eric, the executive chairman of Google, and the two decided that marine science needed more resources. (The government’s research fleet, 28 ships strong in 2000, has shrunk by about a third and faces further cuts.) So they set up the Schmidt Ocean Institute in Palo Alto, Calif., and poured in more than $100 million. The centerpiece is a ship nearly the length of a football field that, unlike most research vessels, has a sauna and a helicopter pad.
“We want to rapidly advance scientific research, to speed it up,” Mrs. Schmidt said in an interview.


The philanthropists’ projects are as diverse as the careers that built their fortunes. George P. Mitchell, considered the father of the drilling process for oil and gas known as fracking, has given about $360 million to fields like particle physics, sustainable development and astronomy — including $35 million for the Giant Magellan Telescope, now being built by a private consortium for installation atop a mountain in Chile.
The cosmos, Mr. Mitchell said in an interview before his death last year, “is too big not to have a good map.” Continue reading the main story Eli Broad, who earned his money in housing and insurance, donated $700 million for a venture between Harvard and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to explore the genetic basis of disease. Gordon Moore of Intel has spent $850 million on research in physics, biology, the environment and astronomy. The investor Ronald O. Perelman, among other donations, gave more than $30 million to study women’s cancers — money that led to Herceptin, a breakthrough drug for certain kinds of breast cancer. Nathan P. Myhrvold, a former chief technology officer at Microsoft, has spent heavily on uncovering fossil remains of Tyrannosaurus rex, and Ray Dalio, founder of Bridgewater Associates, a hedge fund, has lent his mega-yacht to hunts for the elusive giant squid.
The availability of so much well-financed ambition has created a new kind of dating game. In what is becoming a common narrative, researchers like to describe how they begged the federal science establishment for funds, were brushed aside and turned instead to the welcoming arms of philanthropists. To help scientists bond quickly with potential benefactors, a cottage industry has emerged, offering workshops, personal coaching, role-playing exercises and the production of video appeals.
Advancement Resources of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, did its first workshop in 2002 and has now conducted hundreds across the country, mostly to coach scientists and medical institutions in what it calls the art of donor development. “We help make their work accessible to people who do not have scientific backgrounds but do understand money,” said its founder, Joe K. Golding.
Medical institutions are even training their own scientists and doctors in the art of soliciting money from grateful — and wealthy — patients. And Nature ran a lengthy article giving tips on how to “sell science” and “woo philanthropists.” They included practicing an “elevator pitch” — a digest of research so compelling that it would seize a potential donor’s attention in the time between floors.
Practice in front of the mirror and “with anyone who will listen,” it advised. When the pitch is smooth enough, “aim high.”
Government Gloom
In November 2012, the White House issued a thick and portentous update on the health of the nation’s research complex. Produced by Mr. Obama’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology, it warned of American declines, emphasized the rise of scientific rivals abroad and called for bold policy interventions.
“Without adequate support for such research,” the experts wrote in their cover letter, “the United States risks losing its leadership in invention and discovery.”
The financial outlook had fallen far and fast. Congress had long reached across party lines to support government research, for its economic and military rewards and because the distribution of billions of dollars plays well come election time. After rising steadily for decades, federal science financing hit a high point in 2009, in the early days of the Obama administration, as Congress, to stimulate the economy amid the global financial crisis, allocated about $40 billion for basic science.
That bipartisan consensus eroded with the Republican takeover of the House of Representatives in the 2010 midterm elections and the budget battles that followed. Spending on basic research has fallen by roughly a quarter, to $30 billion last year, one of the sharpest declines ever.
The cutbacks translate into layoffs: A group of scientific societies recently surveyed 3,700 scientists and technical managers and reported that 55 percent knew of colleagues who had lost jobs or expected to lose them soon.
In an interview, the director of the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Francis S. Collins, called 2013 one of his agency’s darkest years ever, with fewer grants awarded and with jobs and programs cut. In decades past, research financed by the institutes won more than 100 Nobel Prizes. The cutbacks, Dr. Collins said, were “profoundly discouraging.”
Largely unmentioned in the gloom is the rise of private science. The White House report mentioned philanthropy only in passing. “We didn’t do it justice,” said one of the authors, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the report’s preparation.



Science policy has always been shot through with politics. Little surprise, then, that political sensitivities have been stoked by the injection of philanthropic money into this traditionally public sphere.
The official reticence about private science may reflect, in part, a fear that conservatives will try to use it to further a small-government agenda. Indeed, some of the donors themselves worry that too much focus on private giving could diminish public support for federal science.
“It’s always been a major worry,” said Robert W. Conn, president of the Kavli Foundation, which has committed nearly a quarter of a billion dollars to science and is part of the private effort to increase financing for basic research. “Philanthropy is no substitute for government funding. You can’t say that loud enough.”
Representative Lamar Smith would beg to disagree. Mr. Smith, a 14-term Republican from Texas, helped found the House Tea Party Caucus and, after the Tea Party ferment swept the Republicans to power in the House, became chairman of the Committee on Science, Space and Technology.
Last year, after a meteor exploded over Russia and injured more than 1,200 people, Mr. Smith declared that new sensors in space were “critical to our future.” Then he held a hearing to showcase a satellite-borne telescope meant to scan the solar system for speeding rocks that could endanger the planet. Money for the venture comes from leaders of eBay, Google and Facebook, as well as anonymous private donors.
“We must better recognize what the private sector can do to aid our efforts to protect the world,” Mr. Smith said.
In decades past, that job would have belonged to NASA. But at the hearing, the project’s head, Edward T. Lu, a former astronaut and Google executive, testified that the spacecraft’s cost — $450 million — was about half what the government would have spent.
Committee members enthusiastically suggested that the private endeavor pointed the way toward a new era of lower federal spending.
“Congratulations!” said Representative Dana Rohrabacher, a California Republican. “I’m totally supportive.”
In the recent interview, Dr. Collins of the N.I.H. acknowledged that the philanthropists were “terrifically important” for filling gaps and taking advantage of new opportunities. The science, he emphasized, “has never been at a more exciting moment.”
Still, he and other experts are quick to add that the private surge is far too small to replace public financing.
The N.I.H. budget alone runs to about $30 billion — half for basic research. At least for now, said Dr. Press, the board chairman of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, private giving is “still a drop in the bucket.”
Uncharted Billions
For all that, the government knows very little about how much philanthropic money is flowing into science, or how it is being spent.
Science analysts say that knowledge is vitally important: Without it, the government cannot get a comprehensive picture and strive for a smart balance in the nation’s overall science plans.
The issues are considered social as well as intellectual, and so, in their own grant-making decisions, federal agencies strive to ensure that their money does not flow just to established stars at elite institutions. They consider gender and race, income and geography.
Yet even as the federal government finely monitors its own investments in science research, philanthropy remains largely uncharted territory. (The government does carefully track science financed by private industry, but that research tends to produce such practical things as drugs, jets and gadgets, rather than fundamental insights into the mysteries of nature.) Continue reading the main story “People assume we do it,” said John E. Jankowski, a senior analyst at the National Science Foundation, which not only finances research but also tracks science budgets. “But we don’t, because of resource constraints.”
The task is daunting. If government science is centralized, science philanthropy is determinedly not: It is an agglomeration of donors, from the wealthiest patrons to people who write modest checks to their favorite charities.
The National Academy of Sciences has repeatedly urged the government to step up its monitoring of the uncharted billions. And recently, Dr. Jankowski said, the National Science Foundation began developing a pilot survey, to be completed in about a year.
If budgets allow, he added, the agency plans to “ultimately fund” a comprehensive survey.
In the meantime, Fiona E. Murray, a professor of entrepreneurship at M.I.T., has taken a different tack, studying not the donors but the recipients — particularly the nation’s research universities.
To simplify the task, she looked at the 50 leading universities in science-research spending, places like Columbia and Stanford, Duke and Harvard, Michigan and Johns Hopkins.
What Dr. Murray found sheds light on the scope of the phenomenon, as well as questions about who benefits. Private donors now account for roughly 30 percent of the schools’ research money, she reported, adding that the rise of science philanthropy may simply help “rich fields, universities and individuals to get richer.”



The new patrons are responsible for one of the most striking trends on these campuses: the rise of privately financed institutes, the new temples of science philanthropy.
In Cambridge, Mass. — home to M.I.T. and Harvard — they include the $100 million Ragon Institute for immunology research, the $150 million Koch Institute for cancer studies, the $165 million Stanley Center for Psychiatric Research, the $250 million Wyss Institute for Biologically Inspired Engineering, the $350 million McGovern Institute for brain research, the $450 million Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research and the $700 million Broad Institute for genome research.
“If I’m a rich person, I’m going to give to a leading institution — to Harvard or Princeton,” Dr. Murray said in an interview. That pattern, she added, “poses big issues” for the nation.
A Focus on Disease
If the map of the world of private science has yet to be drawn, one thing is clear: Much of the money is going into campaigns for a cure.
This private war on disease has resulted not only in significant advances in treatment, but also in what experts describe as a major breakthrough in how biomedical research is done. The method opens up blockages that have traditionally kept basic discoveries from being turned into effective treatments — especially for rare diseases that drug companies avoid for lack of potential profit.


“We think it’s potentially transformative,” said Maryann P. Feldman, a professor of public policy at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill who studies the approach.
The first success came with cystic fibrosis, which arises when a faulty gene clogs the lungs and pancreas with a sticky mucus. People with cystic fibrosis suffer from coughing, fatigue, poor digestion and slow growth, and die relatively young.
Around 2000, a surge of wealthy donors began making large contributions to the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation. Tom and Ginny Hughes of Greenwich, Conn., had two daughters with the disease, and gave millions of dollars. The family also posed in snapshots for the foundation’s “Milestones to a Cure” updates, and Mr. Hughes, a banker, helped the charity develop strategies to expand its fund-raising.Continue reading the main story Year after year, the foundation held galas, hikes, runs and golf tournaments, eventually raising more than a quarter-billion dollars. With great skill, it used the money to establish partnerships across industry and academia, smashing through the walls that typically form around research teams.
By early 2012, the financial surge produced the first treatment for an underlying cause of cystic fibrosis. The drug counters a gene mutation that accounts for 4 percent of the cases in the United States — about 1,200 people. The medication thinned the deadly mucus, lessening symptoms and drastically improving quality of life.
The success begot a global rush to turn basic discoveries into treatments, a field now known as translational science. It also inspired rich donors to shower new money on disease research.
Many of their efforts are rooted deep in personal or family trauma. Sometimes, by sheer force of genetics and demographics, that impulse may risk widening historical racial inequalities in health care and disease research, disparities that decades of studies have shown to contribute to higher rates of disease and death among blacks, Hispanics and other minority groups.
A review of these campaigns finds that, as with cystic fibrosis — which mainly strikes people of Northern European descent — a significant number are devoted to diseases that disproportionately affect white people.
Ovarian cancer strikes and kills white women more often than minority women. In 2012, after his sister-in-law died of the disease at age 44, Jonathan D. Gray, the head of global real estate at the Blackstone Group, the private equity firm, gave the University of Pennsylvania $25 million to set up a center to study female cancers.
Melanoma, the deadliest of skin cancers, also strikes and kills whites preferentially. Debra Black, wife of the financier Leon Black, survived a bad scare. Soon after, the couple teamed up with Michael R. Milken, the former junk-bond financier, whose charity FasterCures gives advice on how to accelerate research, to found the Melanoma Research Alliance. It quickly became the world’s largest private sponsor of melanoma research, awarding more than $50 million for work at Yale, Columbia and other universities.
Of course, the pervasiveness of most diseases means most philanthropists give comfort and medical relief across the lines of race and ethnicity. When Mr. Milken, for example, learned that he had prostate cancer, he set up a foundation to fight it. The charity has raised more than half a billion dollars, helping save not only him but also many black men, since they develop the disease more frequently than white men do.
So, too, the techniques of translational science, inspired by philanthropy, are now being applied in a federal effort against sickle cell anemia, a blood disorder that mainly strikes black people and has long been something of a research orphan.
Scientists first described sickle cell anemia in 1910 and uncovered its genetic basis in 1949. The discovery, by a team that included Linus Pauling, a Nobel laureate twice over, was central to the creation of the field of molecular medicine. Yet with little financing for sickle cell research, either public or private, no drug has been developed that targets the disease’s underlying cause, even though it has crippled and killed millions of people.
The government effort began with Dr. Collins, the N.I.H. director, who as a biologist had helped uncover the cystic fibrosis gene. As the new cystic fibrosis treatment emerged, he pressed the government to adopt the breakthrough translational method, federal budget cuts notwithstanding. Today, the N.I.H. translational science center has an annual budget of more than $600 million and seeks new drugs for rare diseases, which number in the thousands.


Dr. Collins, who works with many wealthy donors, said the government was trying to level the playing field rather than rush off to where “everybody’s already piled up effort.” An effective treatment for sickle cell disease, he said, has “been a long time coming.”


A candidate drug is undergoing clinical trials and looks promising. In December, the company working with N.I.H. on the research effort announced that a single dose produced a “significant reduction” of pain for up to 24 hours.
Setting the Agenda
In the early 1980s, Leroy Hood, a biologist at the California Institute of Technology, proposed to make the first automated DNA sequencer, which he pitched to the National Institutes of Health as a way to rapidly identify the billions of hereditary units in every human cell. His grant proposals were rejected, so he turned to Sol Price, a warehouse-store magnate whose companies ultimately merged with Costco.
The breakthrough of the DNA sequencer led to the Human Genome Project — the federal effort that, at a cost of $3.8 billion, mapped all the heritable units — and, more recently, to the burgeoning field of personal genomics.
Science philanthropy, Dr. Hood said, “lets you push the frontiers.”
Over the years, the flood of private money has also inspired something of a reversal. In gene sequencing, in translational medicine, in the Obama administration’s Brain initiative and in other areas, the federal government, instead of setting the agenda, increasingly follows the private lead.
A decade ago, Anousheh Ansari, a Texas engineer who made a fortune in telecommunications, financed a $10 million prize competition for the first private craft that could send three people into space. Her success spawned a boom. Private donors now back dozens of science awards, and the government offers hundreds of its own, motivated, according to a White House study, “by the success of philanthropic and private sector prizes.”
Sometimes, private donors go to the government’s aid. When budget cuts threatened to shut down a giant particle accelerator on Long Island in 2006, Dr. Simons, the hedge-fund investor, who lives nearby, raised $13 million to bail it out. As a result, research teams were able to keep exploring subatomic aspects of the blast that brought the universe into existence.
If the rich donors are to be believed, their financing of scientific research in the years ahead will expand greatly in size and scope. A main reason is the Giving Pledge.
In 2010, Mr. Gates, along with his wife, Melinda, and the investor Warren E. Buffett, announced the campaign. So far, roughly a fifth of America’s nearly 500 billionaires have signed up, pledging to donate the majority of their fortunes to charity.
A Times analysis of the pledge letters made public shows that more than 40 percent of the signers plan to finance studies in science, health and the environment. With personal fortunes in excess of $250 billion, they are promising, at a minimum, to donate more than $125 billion. How much is destined for science is unclear, but several laid out objectives that are fairly extraordinary.
“We want to eradicate diabetes in our lifetime,” wrote Harold Hamm, a leading figure in the North Dakota oil rush, and his wife, Sue Ann.
Jon M. Huntsman, a Utah billionaire whose son Jon Jr. unsuccessfully sought the 2012 Republican presidential nomination, said his philanthropy would “make sure cancer is vanquished.”


Admirers of the new patrons — and the patrons themselves — say that, over the decades, the surge in donations will probably result in economic growth that helps the United States fend off global challengers. The private gifts, they emphasize, will become especially important if Washington funding continues its downward spiral.
Shortly before he died, Mr. Mitchell, the telescope man, spoke of his concern that American science was already losing its competitive edge. He cited the discovery of the Higgs boson, a subatomic particle seen as imparting mass to the universe. The finding was made at a particle accelerator in Europe after tight budgets shut down a rival machine near Chicago.
“We have no excuse” for losing the lead, Mr. Mitchell said. “We need to fix it.”

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #48 on: 18-03-2014, 10:30:18 »
A šta nisu privatizovali?
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #49 on: 18-03-2014, 10:50:42 »
Pa... još uvek imaju relativno kompetitivan svemirski program, privatnici su tu za sada tek podsticajna konkurencija, ali ko zna šta donosi dan a šta donosi noć...

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #50 on: 18-03-2014, 11:14:57 »
Zna se. Čitao sam vrlo ozbiljne nagoveštaje i u SF romanima, ali je lakše ući u noć zatvorenih očiju.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #51 on: 18-03-2014, 11:19:23 »
Dobro, videće se, moguće je da američka administracija, pogotovo sad kad se vidi da Kinezi & Indusi agresivno stupaju put kosmosa, ovo sve ipak shvati kao važan nacionalni prioritet, pa NASA dobije dodatni vepar u leđa, ali.. videće se.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #52 on: 15-07-2014, 09:57:57 »
Dakle, jedan posto naučnika objavljuje 41 posto svih objavljenih naučnih članaka u magazinima:



The 1% of scientific publishing

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Publishing is one of the most ballyhooed metrics of scientific careers, and every researcher hates to have a gap in that part of his or her CV. Here’s some consolation: A new study finds that very few scientists—fewer than 1%—manage to publish a paper every year. But these 150,608 scientists dominate the research journals, having their names on 41% of all papers. Among the most highly cited work, this elite group can be found among the co-authors of 87% of papers.
The new research, published on 9 July in PLOS ONE, was led by epidemiologist John Ioannidis of Stanford University in Palo Alto, California, with analysis of Elsevier’s Scopus database by colleagues Kevin Boyack and Richard Klavans at SciTech Strategies. They looked at papers published between 1996 and 2011 by 15 million scientists worldwide in many disciplines.
“I decided to study this question because I had seen in my life a large number of talented people who just did not survive in the current system and with the current limited resources,” Ioannidis wrote to ScienceInsider in an e-mail. He suspected that only a few scientists are able to publish papers year in, year out. But the finding that less than 1% do so surprised him, he says.
The ranks of scientists who repeatedly published more than one paper per year thin out dramatically.
 >
  • Two or more: 68,221
  • Three or more: 37,953
  • Four or more: 23,342
  • Five or more: 15,464
  • 10 or more: 3269
Many of these prolific scientists are likely the heads of laboratories or research groups; they bring in funding, supervise research, and add their names to the numerous papers that result. Others may be scientists with enough job security and time to do copious research themselves, Ioannidis says.
But there’s also a lot of grunt work behind these papers that appear like clockwork from highly productive labs. “In many disciplines, doctoral students may be enrolled in high numbers, offering a cheap workforce,” Ioannidis and his co-authors write in their paper. These students may spend years on research that yields, then, only one or a few papers. “n these cases, the research system may be exploiting the work of millions of young scientists.”
If he could pick one thing to do, Ioannidis wrote in an e-mail, he would recommend spreading resources "to give more opportunities to a wider pool of scientists, especially younger ones, to help them secure continuity of productivity and excellence."

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #53 on: 15-07-2014, 10:04:57 »
Ostali moraju i da rade.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #54 on: 15-07-2014, 10:08:06 »
Mislim da je tu ključno ovo:


Quote
Many of these prolific scientists are likely the heads of laboratories or research groups; they bring in funding, supervise research, and add their names to the numerous papers that result.


Što je samo dobrodošlo podsećanje na to koliko nauka zavisi od interesovanja potencijalnih finansijera.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #55 on: 15-07-2014, 10:23:06 »
Ako je to ključno onda sam ja blesav. Šefovi redovno podstiču, proveravaju i odobravaju radove, pa i potpisuju u nedostatku savesti. :evil:
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #56 on: 15-07-2014, 10:38:07 »
u nedostatku savesti.

Ma, savest na stranu, ovde više mislim da na kraju istorija pamti onog ko je mogao da ispregovara pare umesto onog koji je zaista napravio istraživački uspeh...

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #57 on: 15-07-2014, 12:56:00 »
U to veruju i oni koji pregovaraju o parama, ali istina je malo drugačija. Oni koji daju pare traže na uvid i "istraživački komplet", pa se uvek zna i ko rinta. Na primer, moju ćerku su Filadelfiji držali kao saradnika na platnom spisku pet godina pošto je otišla u Tulsu. Ona je morala da im kaže da više neće sa njima. Kadrovi su roba koja se prodaje zajedno sa projektima. I prodavac mora da ima robu inače je u bedaku. Nadam se da je to jasno?

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #58 on: 15-07-2014, 13:07:50 »
To je lepo i u redu, ali da li ona spada u jedan procenat koji objavljuje skoro pola svih radova u svetu? Ne! Dakle, sa strane nekog tamo istoričara nauke, ona je fizikalac a ovaj koji je sredio fanding i potpisao rad je mudri istraživač!

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #59 on: 15-07-2014, 13:55:15 »
Ti sad možeš da nastaviš, a ja ću poštedeti sebe.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #60 on: 10-09-2014, 09:06:24 »
Scientific consensus has gotten a bad reputation—and it doesn’t deserve it



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It's used by both sides in the climate debates, but consensus is part of a process.



One of the many unfortunate aspects of arguments over climate change is that it's where many people come across the idea of a scientific consensus. Just as unfortunately, their first exposure tends to be in the form of shouted sound bites: "But there's a consensus!" "Consensus has no place in science!"
Lost in the shouting is the fact that consensus plays several key roles in the process of science. In light of all the consensus choruses, it's probably time to step back and examine its importance and why it's a central part of the scientific process. And only after that is it possible to take a look at consensus and climate change.
 Standards of evidence Fiction author Michael Crichton probably started the backlash against the idea of consensus in science. Crichton was rather notable for doubting the conclusions of climate scientists—he wrote an entire book in which they were the villains—so it's fair to say he wasn't thrilled when the field reached a consensus. Still, it's worth looking at what he said, if only because it's so painfully misguided:


"
Let's be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results.
"


Reproducible results are absolutely relevant. What Crichton is missing is how we decide that those results are significant and how one investigator goes about convincing everyone that he or she happens to be right. This comes down to what the scientific community as a whole accepts as evidence.
In an earlier discussion of science's standards for statistical significance, we wrote, "Nobody's ever found a stone tablet etched with a value for scientific certainty." Different fields use different values of what they think constitutes significance. In biology, where "facts" are usually built from a large collection of consistent findings, scientists are willing to accept findings that are only two standard deviations away from random noise as evidence. In physics, where particles either exist or don't, five standard deviations are required.
While that makes the standards of evidence sound completely rational, they're also deeply empirical. Physicists found that signals that were three standard deviations from the expected value came and went all the time, which is why they increased their standard. Biologists haven't had such problems, but other problems have popped up as new technology enabled them to do tests that covered tens of thousands of genes instead of only a handful. Suddenly, spurious results were cropping up at a staggering pace. For these experiments, biologists agreed to a different standard of evidence.
It's not like they got together and had a formal vote on it. Instead, there were a few editorials that highlighted the problem, and those pieces started to sway the opinions of not only scientists but journal editors and the people who fund grants. In other words, the field reached a consensus.
That sort of thing is easiest to see in terms of statistical significance, but it pervades the process of science. If two closely related species share a feature, then we conclude it was present in their common ancestor. The scientific community decided to establish 15 percent ice coverage as the standard for when a region of the ocean contains ice. It required that every potential planet imaged by the Kepler probe must have its presence confirmed by an independent method before being called a planet. There's no objective standard that defines any one of these test as the truth; it's just that the people in the field have reached a consensus about what constitutes evidence.
 Consensus is not just for standards Just as fields reach a consensus about what constitutes evidence, they reach a consensus about what that evidence has demonstrated. Confusion about the potential causes of AIDS dominated the early years of the epidemic, but it took researchers only two years after the formal description of the disorder to identify a virus that infected the right cells. In less than a decade, enough evidence piled up to allow the biomedical research community to form a consensus: HIV was the causal agent of AIDS.
That doesn't mean that every single person in the field had been convinced; there are holdouts, including a Nobel Prize winner, who continue to argue that the evidence is insufficient. Those in the field–and humanity in general—simply don't find their arguments persuasive. We've since oriented public policy around what the vast majority of experts consider a fact.
In most fields, however, the stakes aren't quite so high. You get informal consensuses forming around things that the public isn't ever aware of: the existence of morphogens in patterning embryonic tissues, the source of the radiation in the jets of quasars, and so on. If you asked a large group of scientists, their consensus would be that consensus is a normal part of the scientific process. Contrary to Crichton's writings, the consensus forms precisely because reproducible evidence is generated.
 Consensus matters On its own, the existence of a consensus seems trivial; researchers conclude some things based on the state of the evidence without that evidence ever rising to the level of formal proof. But consensus plays a critical role in the day-to-day functioning of science as well.
In The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Thomas Kuhn discussed the idea of paradigms: big intellectual frameworks that organize a field's research. Paradigms help identify problems that need solving, areas that still have anomalous results—all while giving researchers ways of interpreting any results they get. Generally, they tell scientists what to do and how to think of their results. Although not as important or over-arching as a paradigm, a consensus functions the same way, just at a smaller scale.
For example, researchers will necessarily interpret their results based on what the consensus in their field is. So odd cosmic observations will be considered in terms of the existence of dark matter particles, given that there's a consensus that the particles exist. It doesn't matter whether the researchers—or their results—agree with the consensus. The existence of a consensus simply shapes the discussion. In the same way, research goals and grants are set based on areas where the consensus opinion seems a bit weak or has unanswered questions.
At first glance, this may seem like it can stifle the appearance of ideas that run counter to the consensus. But any idea in science carries the seeds of its own destruction. By directing research to the areas where there are outstanding questions, a consensus makes it more likely that we'll generate data that directly contradicts it. It may take a little while to get recognized for what it is, but eventually the data will win out.

A climate of consensus It's easy to find examples of how a consensus operates from any area of science, and the field of climate science is no different. A strong consensus has formed about the broad outlines of climate change, although there are still some details, like the precise impact of aerosols, that are recognized as uncertain. (You could say that either no consensus has formed or that there's a consensus that we don't precisely know.) You're never going to convince everyone in the field, but a variety of studies have suggested that over 95 percent of the scientists with the relevant expertise are on the same page about the general outlines of climate change.
What's really different is that the consensus has been formalized. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change produces assessment reports that summarize the latest knowledge in the field. These reports synthesize multiple research papers to paint a general picture of the state of knowledge, and they even provide measures of how certain that picture is. And as mentioned above, people have used a variety of methods—literature searches, polling of scientists, and so on—to measure the state of the consensus. Each of those attempts has put the consensus number for climate change in the area of 97 percent agreement.
A consensus definitely exists. Does that mean it's right?
There have clearly been times in the past where the consensus wasn't especially brilliant. Mendel was ignored instead of starting to build a consensus, and Alfred Wegner's formative ideas about plate tectonics were roundly ridiculed. But it's worth noting that these cases are the exception. The majority of the time, the consensus is a bit closer to being right than whatever came before it. And while it may be slow to change sometimes, it can eventually be shifted by the weight of the evidence.
The other thing is that scientists are reasonably good at knowing when they don't know something as well as they'd like to. For example, uncertainties about aerosols and cloud feedbacks are generally recognized as the biggest challenge facing climate projections, and most scientists would also agree that projections don't do a great job with regional effects.
That doesn't mean individual scientists aren't convinced that they know what's going on, either about these topics or others where scientific knowledge remains fluid. It's just that there are enough other scientists convinced that the first group are wrong. It becomes clear to everyone involved that there's a bitter argument going on. And that's enough to show bystanders that matters haven't been settled yet.
 No consensus? Unfortunately, for people outside the field, it can be hard to distinguish these sorts of scientific arguments from the pedantic nitpicking that's often done by scientists who haven't been persuaded by the evidence and probably never will be. There will always be people with relevant credentials who aren't convinced, and they often make technical-sounding arguments about why the evidence falls short. And they typically find ways of making sure the public hears those arguments.
But it's important to understand what the few scientists that don't accept the consensus are arguing. To begin with, critics of the mainstream climate consensus aren't arguing that consensus has no place in science. Judith Curry, often an outspoken critic of other climate scientists, describes consensus as a normal part of science. And Roy Spencer has no complaints about the existence of a consensus—he just questions the extent of the agreement.
Spencer also attempts to clarify what, exactly, the consensus is about: the warming of the Earth and the existence of a greenhouse effect that can be driven by carbon dioxide. By that standard, he has suggested, pretty much everyone is in agreement.
 The consensus in popular arguments All of this is true in the scientific community. But in the popular debate, these things frequently get lost to the extent that polls consistently show that a large fraction of the US public doesn't even think that the temperatures have gone up, much less that humans might have anything to do with it.
If the consensus comes up in these conversations at all, it's usually used in one of two ways. Either advocates of the consensus use it as a rhetorical club—essentially asking why anybody wouldn't agree with all the scientists. In other cases, it's used as a parry. Someone will start an argument from authority based on a scientist who doesn't agree with the scientific community's conclusions, and the consensus will be pulled out in order to provide a bigger, more comprehensive authority.
Things usually go downhill from there. People will argue that consensus has no place in science (often quoting Crichton) or complain that studies that showed a consensus exists were somehow lacking (even though several independent ones have come to roughly the same numbers).
Given that it's so often used in unfortunate ways, is there any value in publicizing the existence of a consensus on climate? Quite possibly. Repeated polls indicate that most people think there is still significant debate about the reality of human-driven climate change within the scientific community; the strength of the consensus indicates that the debate is largely over. The gap between the public's perception of things and reality indicates that there's a need for better communications. And one of the people who have studied the degree of consensus, John Cook, has argued that the gap exists across the ideological spectrum, even among those predisposed to accept the scientific community's conclusions.
But simply pointing out that a consensus exists won't help much if the public doesn't understand that consensus is a natural part of the process of science, something arrived at by a careful evaluation of evidence. Mentions of the consensus are best made in the context of a conversation about how it functions within science rather than when people are attempting to shout each other down. And discussions on climate change far too often veer to the latter.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #61 on: 15-09-2014, 09:28:41 »
Why Atheists Need Captain Kirk





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"European society is very advanced, very civilized. Between holocausts."
The painter Barnett Newman is said to have replied along these lines to a friend who was bemoaning the sorry state of American political life and praising European social democracy.
It's a good joke. It casts light on the whole religion versus science controversy as well.
Scientists, and cultural defenders of science, like to think of themselves as free of prejudice and superstition, as moved by reason alone and a clear-eyed commitment to fact and the scientific method. They reject religion as an irrational and ungrounded burden of tradition. They see religion the way Europeans (and some Americans) see Americans. As somehow backward.
To which one might reply: Science is all those things. Between holocausts!
Scientists supported Hitler the same as anyone else. Their scientists and engineers made missiles and gas chambers. Ours made atomic bombs.
I'm pro-science, but I'm against what I'll call "Spock-ism," after the character from the TV show Star Trek. I reject the idea that science is logical, purely rational, that it is detached and value-free, and that it is, for all these reasons, morally superior.
Spock-ism gives us a false picture of science. It gives us a false picture of humankind's situation. We are not disinterested knowers. The natural world is not a puzzle.
Part of what Spock-ism gets wrong is that science isn't one thing. There's no Science Party or Scientific Worldview. Nor is there one scientific method, advertising to the contrary notwithstanding.
Spockians like to pretend that science has proved that there is no God, or that fundamental reality consists only of matter. But both of these claims are untrue. The first is untrue because science doesn't concern itself with God one way or they other. As for the second: Science has no more proved that only matter is real than it has proved that there is no such thing as love, humor, sunsets or knuckleballs.
Spockians give science a bad name. If you think of science as being in the business of figuring out how atoms spinning noiselessly in the void give rise to the illusion that there are such things as love, humor, sunsets and knuckleballs, then it isn't surprising that people might come to think that the inner life of a scientist would be barren.
I suspect this is what is at stake when people find it hard to believe that atheists have active spiritual lives — or that they might experience wonder or awe. It isn't the non-belief in God that makes atheism seem puzzling. It's theactive adherence to the Spockian worldview. For the Spockian worldview is the denial of meaning and value.
In this context, it is no answer to critics of atheism to say that, as a matter of fact, atheists feel awe in the face of nature, that you don't need God for wonder.
For in a Spockian universe there is no such thing as nature, there is just material process, particles and fields, in the void. Nor, for the Spockian, is there any such thing as wonder, not really; for what is an emotion, but a conjury of particles in the nervous system?
The religionist, it should be noted, is not much better off. God doesn't explain meaning or value any better than the laws of physics. But in one respect, the religionist may have an advantage: Atheists, in so far as they are followers of Spock, have an explanatory burden that religionists don't carry — that of explaining how you get meaning and value out of particles, or alternatively, that of explaining why meaning and value are an illusion.
The big challenge for atheism is not God; it is that of providing an alternative to Spock-ism. We need an account of our place in the world that leaves room for value.
What we need, then, is a Kirkian understanding of science and its place in our lives. The world, for Captain Kirk and his ontological followers, is a field of play, and science is a form of action.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #62 on: 24-09-2014, 10:25:18 »
O ovome smo ovde više puta diskutovali, pa vredi pročitati lepo obrazložen tekst:



How our botched understanding of 'science' ruins everything               


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Intellectuals of all persuasions love to claim the banner of science. A vanishing few do so properly.


Here's one certain sign that something is very wrong with our collective mind: Everybody uses a word, but no one is clear on what the word actually means.
One of those words is "science."
Everybody uses it. Science says this, science says that. You must vote for me because science. You must buy this because science. You must hate the folks over there because science.
Look, science is really important. And yet, who among us can easily provide a clear definition of the word "science" that matches the way people employ the term in everyday life?
So let me explain what science actually is. Science is the process through which we derive reliable predictive rules through controlled experimentation. That's the science that gives us airplanes and flu vaccines and the Internet. But what almost everyone means when he or she says "science" is something different.
To most people, capital-S Science is the pursuit of capital-T Truth. It is a thing engaged in by people wearing lab coats and/or doing fancy math that nobody else understands. The reason capital-S Science gives us airplanes and flu vaccines is not because it is an incremental engineering process but because scientists are really smart people.
In other words — and this is the key thing — when people say "science", what they really mean is magic or truth.



A little history: The first proto-scientist was the Greek intellectual Aristotle, who wrote many manuals of his observations of the natural world and who also was the first person to propose a systematic epistemology, i.e., a philosophy of what science is and how people should go about it. Aristotle's definition of science became famous in its Latin translation as: rerum cognoscere causas, or, "knowledge of the ultimate causes of things." For this, you can often see in manuals Aristotle described as the Father of Science.
The problem with that is that it's absolutely not true. Aristotelian "science" was a major setback for all of human civilization. For Aristotle, science started with empirical investigation and then used theoretical speculation to decide what things are caused by.
What we now know as the "scientific revolution" was a repudiation of Aristotle: science, not as knowledge of the ultimate causes of things but as the production of reliable predictive rules through controlled experimentation.
Galileo disproved Aristotle's "demonstration" that heavier objects should fall faster than light ones by creating a subtle controlled experiment (contrary to legend, he did not simply drop two objects from the Tower of Pisa). What was so important about this Galileo Moment was not that Galileo was right and Aristotle wrong; what was so important was how Galileo proved Aristotle wrong: through experiment.
This method of doing science was then formalized by one of the greatest thinkers in history, Francis Bacon. What distinguishes modern science from other forms of knowledge such as philosophy is that it explicitly forsakes abstract reasoning about the ultimate causes of things and instead tests empirical theories through controlled investigation. Science is not the pursuit of capital-T Truth. It's a form of engineering — of trial by error. Scientific knowledge is not "true" knowledge, since it is knowledge about only specific empirical propositions — which is always, at least in theory, subject to further disproof by further experiment. Many people are surprised to hear this, but the founder of modern science says it. Bacon, who had a career in politics and was an experienced manager, actually wrote that scientists would have to be misled into thinking science is a pursuit of the truth, so that they will be dedicated to their work, even though it is not.
Why is all this ancient history important? Because science is important, and if we don't know what science actually is, we are going to make mistakes.
The vast majority of people, including a great many very educated ones, don't actually know what science is.
If you ask most people what science is, they will give you an answer that looks a lot like Aristotelian "science" — i.e., the exact opposite of what modern science actually is. Capital-S Science is the pursuit of capital-T Truth. And science is something that cannot possibly be understood by mere mortals. It delivers wonders. It has high priests. It has an ideology that must be obeyed.
This leads us astray. Since most people think math and lab coats equal science, people call economics a science, even though almost nothing in economics is actually derived from controlled experiments. Then people get angry at economists when they don't predict impending financial crises, as if having tenure at a university endowed you with magical powers. Countless academic disciplines have been wrecked by professors' urges to look "more scientific" by, like a cargo cult, adopting the externals of Baconian science (math, impenetrable jargon, peer-reviewed journals) without the substance and hoping it will produce better knowledge.
Because people don't understand that science is built on experimentation, they don't understand that studies in fields like psychology almost never prove anything, since only replicated experiment proves something and, humans being a very diverse lot, it is very hard to replicate any psychological experiment. This is how you get articles with headlines saying "Study Proves X" one day and "Study Proves the Opposite of X" the next day, each illustrated with stock photography of someone in a lab coat. That gets a lot of people to think that "science" isn't all that it's cracked up to be, since so many studies seem to contradict each other.
This is how you get people asserting that "science" commands this or that public policy decision, even though with very few exceptions, almost none of the policy options we as a polity have have been tested through experiment (or can be). People think that a study that uses statistical wizardry to show correlations between two things is "scientific" because it uses high school math and was done by someone in a university building, except that, correctly speaking, it is not. While it is a fact that increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere leads, all else equal, to higher atmospheric temperatures, the idea that we can predict the impact of global warming — and anti-global warming policies! — 100 years from now is sheer lunacy. But because it is done using math by people with tenure, we are told it is "science" even though by definition it is impossible to run an experiment on the year 2114.
This is how you get the phenomenon of philistines like Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne thinking science has made God irrelevant, even though, by definition, religion concerns the ultimate causes of things and, again, by definition, science cannot tell you about them.


You might think of science advocate, cultural illiterate, mendacious anti-Catholic propagandist, and possible serial fabulist Neil DeGrasse Tyson and anti-vaccine looney-toon Jenny McCarthy as polar opposites on a pro-science/anti-science spectrum, but in reality they are the two sides of the same coin. Both of them think science is like magic, except one of them is part of the religion and the other isn't.
The point isn't that McCarthy isn't wrong on vaccines. (She is wrong.) The point is that she is the predictable result of a society that has forgotten what "science" means. Because we lump many different things together, there are bits of "science" that aren't actual science that get lumped into society's understanding of what science is. It's very profitable for those who grab some of the social prestige that accrues to science, but it means we live in a state of confusion.
It also means that for all our bleating about "science" we live in an astonishingly unscientific and anti-scientific society. We have plenty of anti-science people, but most of our "pro-science" people are really pro-magic (and therefore anti-science).
This bizarre misunderstanding of science yields the paradox that even as we expect the impossible from science ("Please, Mr Economist, peer into your crystal ball and tell us what will happen if Obama raises/cuts taxes"), we also have a very anti-scientific mindset in many areas.
For example, our approach to education is positively obscurantist. Nobody uses rigorous experimentation to determine better methods of education, and someone who would dare to do so would be laughed out of the room. The first and most momentous scientist of education, Maria Montessori, produced an experimentally based, scientific education method that has been largely ignored by our supposedly science-enamored society. We have departments of education at very prestigious universities, and absolutely no science happens at any of them.
Our approach to public policy is also astonishingly pre-scientific. There have been almost no large-scale truly scientific experiments on public policy since the welfare randomized field trials of the 1990s, and nobody seems to realize how barbaric this is. We have people at Brookings who can run spreadsheets, and Ezra Klein can write about it and say it proves things, we have all the science we need, thank you very much. But that is not science.
Modern science is one of the most important inventions of human civilization. But the reason it took us so long to invent it and the reason we still haven't quite understood what it is 500 years later is it is very hard to be scientific. Not because science is "expensive" but because it requires a fundamental epistemic humility, and humility is the hardest thing to wring out of the bombastic animals we are.
But until we take science for what it really is, which is both more and less than magic, we will still have one foot in the barbaric dark.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #63 on: 03-10-2014, 00:20:42 »
odličan tekst, mada ga je na kraju sa pozivom na eksperimentalna istraživanja u obrazovanju i socijali malo zastranio

mislim, ja bih rado eksperimentiso na djeci, al ne daju dušmani

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #64 on: 03-10-2014, 07:45:54 »
Mrzi me da ga sad ponovo čitam ali mislim da on nije pozvao na eksperimentisanje na deci (nešto o čemu svaki pošten čovek razmišlja bar po nekoliko puta svakog dana), već da je pokušavao da napravi poentu da ne možemo da tvrdimo da su nam obrazovanje i socijalna politika utemeljeni na nauci (radije nego na proizvoljnim nagađanjima) jer njihove principe nikada nismo eksperimentalno proveravali. Isto važi i za politiku i druge stvari za koje nominalno mislimo da su "dizajnirane" sa kartezijanskim, racionalnim, naučnim principima na prvom mestu iako, tehnički gledano nisu.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #65 on: 03-10-2014, 12:40:39 »
Quote
There have been almost no large-scale truly scientific experiments on public policy since the welfare randomized field trials of the 1990s, and nobody seems to realize how barbaric this is.



eo otprilike ova rečenica



nismo eksperimentisali - to je varvarski

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #66 on: 03-10-2014, 13:41:52 »
Eksperimenti se sprovode na uzorku populacije, koja može valjda i da odbije da bude deo eksperimenta, a eksperiment na živom svetu i tako mora da prođe etičku komisiju, što je najbitnije u celoj priči. Ja ne vidim problem, ako se sve uradi po pravilu službe.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #67 on: 03-10-2014, 14:25:19 »
Mislim da tekst pokušava da objasni da nauka nije apsolut. I nije. Da jeste odavno bismo digli hramove i klanjali u njima. Nauka počiva na sumnji u nju, na teorijama, hipotezama, eksperimentalnim programima, definisanim uzorcima i odabranim parametrima koji grade okvir hipoteze i uslovima u kojima se eksperimentiše. Rezultat mora da bude prihvatljiv i ponovljiv. Ustvari, postoji veoma jednostavan kriterijum ocene pouzdanosti neke nauke, ali će društvenjaci popizdeti ako ga navedem. To je: što je više stepena slobode koji određuju neku naučnu disciplinu to je manji stepen njene pouzdanosti, a verovatnoća greške veća. Imam ja lepu priču kako se to iskazuje od matematičkih teorija do teorija umetnosti, ali biće da vas to ne zanima.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #68 on: 03-10-2014, 15:44:41 »
pa dobro, prirodnjaci imaju mnogo gluplji predmet istraživanja 8-)

nađeš 100 apsolutno istih atoma i mućkaš epruvete, jaka stvar, i onda je kao eksperiment ponovljiv, provjerljiv, prihvatljiv

ako uzmeš 100 ljudi, nikad ne možeš da ponoviš eksperiment, jer je riječ o složenim bićima, koja na trista različitih načina reaguju na ''stimulans''

pri čemu i stimulans ne može suštinki biti izolovan, Srbi, Španci i Škoti će sasvim različito reagovati na ekonomsku krizu (pri čemu ne postoji jedna vrsta krize već ko zna koliko), neće isto, nisu istovjetni atomi, nemaju isti broj neutrona i protona

glup predmet istraživanja, rekoh 8-)

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #69 on: 03-10-2014, 15:48:39 »
To sam i napisao. Ja se svaki put prekrstim kad neko napiše da je ono čime se ti baviš nauka.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #70 on: 04-10-2014, 10:30:26 »
gledaj na to ovako, dođe balavi Bata fizičar i pametuje nešto scallopu politikologu, starom 2700 godina

znaš, ja sam suštinski pola milenijuma stara nauka, i ja fizika posedujem superiornost nad vama matorima politikolozima, filozofima, psiholozima... ko ste vi bre, stariji od Biblije, vi da budete nauke. More, ja sam fizički uhvatio Platona za muda. Pardon, za jajca 8-)

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #71 on: 04-10-2014, 11:35:23 »
A ti gledaj ovao: Dođe balavi Bata, politikolog, da drži lekcije Scallopu i uhvati se za Platonova muda. Ne zna ništa više, ništa dalje. A Platon i njegova svojta se držala za kitu Demokritu, koji je postavio značajnije teorije univerzuma i bio jedan od prvih koji je shvatio da je teorija ništa bez eksperimentalnog dokaza. Skokni malo do Abdere, pa se uveri kako je to radio. xfrog


Ustvari, nisam potcenjivao različite naučne pristupe, samo sam ukazao da je neka nauka manje pouzdana što više zavisi od broja parametara koji neku pojavu određuju. Budući da se matematika bavi nematerijalnim svetom, najmanje je ugrožena. Već fizički zakoni zavise od materijalnog sveta i ništa se u njoj ne može smatrati konačnim. Hemija uvodi promenu materije šta snižava njenu validnost. Biologija uvodi živu materiju i tu je već kuršlus. Ako pogledaš opstojnost narednih nauka ustanovićeš da u njima ništa nije pouzdano. Naravno, politikologija je nešto iznad umetničkih nauka.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #72 on: 04-10-2014, 13:36:40 »
teorija ništa bez eksperimentalnog dokaza

theoria, θεωρία, meant "a looking at, viewing, beholding"

došo neki balavi fizičar, i poslije 2000 godina društvenih nauka umislio da može da postavlja temelje i izmišlja kriterijume prema kojima je nešto nauka, mlađi da određuje i ocjenjuje starije, pa je kao eksperiment postao glavni kriterijum naučnosti

a pritom ta ista fizika nije ispunila kriterijume koji su postojali prije nje, pa se sad grči u filozofskoj jalovosti, i eventualno oduševi nekoga rečenicom ''vidi, mikser!''

a što na glavna životna pitanja ne zna da odgovori kakve to veze ima, mislim glavno je da dobro sjecka luk 8-)

pitam se kako se eksperimentom dokazuje da kapitalista uzima radniku višak vrijednosti

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #73 on: 04-10-2014, 14:05:34 »
Dakle, ko shvatio shvaio, ko nije ni neće.


Ako ima neko još kome nije jasno nek' se javi. Bata je dokazao svoje.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #74 on: 04-10-2014, 18:07:00 »
nemoj sad da si takav, mislim upravo si rekao da je Marksova teorija o prisvajanju viška vrijednosti od slabe vajde, pošto nije eksperimentalno potvrđena

pa da, ona uopšte nije validna, zato kapitalizam i dalje postoji! Zašto i ne bi postojao kad je višak vrijednosti u stvari nepouzdana tvrdnja nekog bradatog Jevrejina sa prevelikim stepenom slobode 8-)

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #75 on: 04-10-2014, 18:42:32 »
To ti je kao Seldonova psihoistorija u Zadužbini. Mogao je da sačini idealnu utopijsku predikciju društvenih promena u univerzumu, ali je morao da predvidi i pojavu Mazgova, kao iskakanje iz teorije. Da je politikologija validna i teorije zavere bi bespogovorno funkcionisale.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #76 on: 04-10-2014, 19:10:36 »
još malo pa ćeš zvučati kao Boris neoliberal 8-)

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #77 on: 04-10-2014, 19:13:21 »
A ti ćeš da prestaneš da zvučiš.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #78 on: 05-10-2014, 12:18:05 »
a sad eksperimentalno dokaži da ja zvučim! 8-)

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #79 on: 05-10-2014, 12:45:02 »
Pa, dalo bi se, ali bih morao da te turim u eksperimentalni program, da odredim zavisne i nezavisno promenljive parametre i mernu tehniku, kao što su malj, čekić, testera... U svakom slučaju, zvučao bi neko vreme.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

JasonBezArgonauta

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #80 on: 05-10-2014, 13:06:19 »
Pa onda, recimo, u neku pećku gde će preći iz manje verovatnog stanja u verovatnije?
Čini mi se da ovaj zid izgleda drugačije. Bendžamine, da li su Sedam zapovesti iste kao što su bile ranije?

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #81 on: 05-10-2014, 13:12:26 »
Ček malo, Jasone, rekli smo ZVUČANJE, a ne CVRĆANJE.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

JasonBezArgonauta

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #82 on: 05-10-2014, 13:17:23 »
I cvrćanje je neko zvućanje.
Čini mi se da ovaj zid izgleda drugačije. Bendžamine, da li su Sedam zapovesti iste kao što su bile ranije?

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #83 on: 05-10-2014, 15:59:57 »
 a ne, teza je bila da ja zvučim sam po sebi, bez pomagala, bez malja i rerne, dakle eksperiment je već namješten i netačan 8-)


scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #84 on: 05-10-2014, 16:14:33 »
a ne, teza je bila da ja zvučim sam po sebi, bez pomagala, bez malja i rerne, dakle eksperiment je već namješten i netačan 8)



Opet dokićavaš osnovnu sliku. Uskoro ćeš stići do Platona i Deride. I nemoj po sebi da zvučiš, pokvasićeš se. Hajde, reci nam iskreno: Jesi li ikada postavio i sproveo neki eksperiment?
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

JasonBezArgonauta

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #85 on: 05-10-2014, 16:25:10 »
Jebeš nauku bez pomagala. Missim, npr ako te otmu vanzemljaci, nisu te oni oteli da bi im ti čitucko Marksa i prodavo Platonova muda za bubrege. Nemaju oni vremena za to glupiranje, ima bre da seckaju i peku, a bez alata nema ni nauke. Ajd sad, u peć.
Čini mi se da ovaj zid izgleda drugačije. Bendžamine, da li su Sedam zapovesti iste kao što su bile ranije?

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #86 on: 05-10-2014, 16:47:55 »
a ne, nije to isto, npr ti možeš nekim pomagalom da mi mjeriš decibele i provjeriš da li zvučim, ali ne možeš pomagalom da izazivaš zvučanje

scallop, nadrinaučnik, je tvrdio da ja zvučim prije bilo kakvog kontakta sa testerama i pećnicama

samim tim, ubacivanje takvih pomagala kontaminira laboratorijski prostor!

Jesi li ikada postavio i sproveo neki eksperiment?

na hiljade!  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment


scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #87 on: 05-10-2014, 17:19:12 »
A, ta vrsta eksperimenta. :-x
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #88 on: 05-10-2014, 18:21:08 »
nego šta, pa to je i Demokritu omiljena vrsta eksperimenta

učestvovo sam ja i u eksperimentalnom nerviranju scallopa, totalno provjerljiv, potvrdljiv eksperiment, dokazano 8-)

ali meni još uvijek nije jasno kako da organizujem eksperiment o prisvajanju viška vrijednosti, to je misterija

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #89 on: 05-10-2014, 18:30:03 »
Šta mogu, osetljiv sam na glupost. 8)
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #90 on: 06-10-2014, 11:56:47 »
kakve gluposti, pa ja bacam bisere pred tebe a ti ih samo njuškom makneš i nastaviš da rovariš 8-)

kako se eksperimentalno dokazuje da su svi ljudi jednaki?

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #91 on: 06-10-2014, 12:22:53 »
Jednaki u pravno-ideološkom smislu, to jest da svi mi podjednako imamo prava da ostvarimo svoje ciljeve? To se ne dokazuje, nego se od te ideje polazi. Indusi, recimo, u svom kastinskom sistemu ne polaze od te ideje.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #92 on: 06-10-2014, 12:31:27 »
Ne dokazuje se. Ljudi nisu jednaki. To je fičlozpofsko tupljenje, kao što je tupljenje Platonova Utopija. Ne postoji utopija. Naravno, možeš misaono da eksperimentišeš koliko te volja i sve je u redu dok ne stekneš istomišljenike. Onda postaješ štetočina koju je Hari Seldon nazvao Mazgov. Ni konj ni magarac. Na neki način ti si već štetočina, jer si svojim nasilnim prozivanjem oterao Borisa, a sa njim je bilo moguće raspravljati. I šteta je što si izvršio subverziju nad temom koja je mogla da rasvetli dokle je nauka nauka, a odakle postaje ideologija. Šteta.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #93 on: 06-10-2014, 12:33:43 »
S druge strane, Američka deklaracija nezavisnosti tvrdi da je jednakost ljudi očigledna i da joj ne treba obrazlaganje (verujem da je Bata na to smerao):

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


Naravno, pozivaju se na Tvorca što takođe podrazumeva da nema govora o naučnom dokazivanju ovih istina već da je u igri samo i isključivo vera.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #94 on: 06-10-2014, 12:37:52 »
Deklaracije su foliranje neukih. I taj Tvorac nagrađuje i kažnjava, znači, nisu mu svi jednaki.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #95 on: 06-10-2014, 13:01:21 »
Deklaracija je vrlo precizna: svi su STVORENI jednaki, ali to ne znači da će se dalje ponašati jednako.  :lol:

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #96 on: 06-10-2014, 13:20:13 »
Budi ljubazan pa mi objasni kakve to veze ima sa naukom?
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #97 on: 06-10-2014, 13:30:10 »
Uskoro ćemo saznati da je scallop glasao za Vučića

inače, ako eksperimentalno dokažemo da ljudi nisu jednaki onda lijepo valja uvesti gore spomenuti kastinski sistem, napredni gore, nazadna opozicija dolje, i čitavo društvo ustrojiti prema eksperimentalno dokazanim kriterijumima

oduzeti opšta ljudska prava, nema beneficiranih ponuda, ko hoće da se vozi javnim prevozom da plati punu cijenu, ko hoće da se liječi takođe, nema solidarnog zdravstvenog sistema, nema potrebe za opštedostupnim obrazovanjem, šta će bilo kom naprednjačkom nadčovjeku autoput do Niša. Ukinuti penzije, tog socijalističkog frankenštajna zasnovanog na egalitarističkoj fantaziji

ljudi nisu jednaki, eksperimentalno dokazano, na čelu je Supervučić, dole smo mi miševi

ukinuti izbore, ne služe ničemu, eventualno iluziji da smo jednaki ili da kao brinemo jedni o drugima, u stvari, ovo je sve džungla u koju si tigar ili si plijen

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #98 on: 06-10-2014, 13:31:52 »
 
Budi ljubazan pa mi objasni kakve to veze ima sa naukom?

Nikakve, samo ukazujem da je Bata najverovatnije na ovo mislio - verovanje da su svi ljudi stvoreni jednaki je u temelju savremenih demokratskih teorija, iako je u pitanju naučno neproverena tvrdnja koju politikologija - ili makar njeni delovi - uzima za aksiom.

Edit: Ili, da, ovo što je Bata sad iznad mene ispiso, samo manje strastveno.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #99 on: 06-10-2014, 13:39:42 »
To i jeste savremena neoliberalna doktrina. Ali, teorije i javni iskazi ništa ne dokazuju. Sve je to blebetanje, nauka je something completely different. U njoj nema cile-mile, šta bio neko "teo da oće", ona teorije i hipoteze ili dokazuje ili baca na đubre. Zato i Batini stavovi ne vrede pišivog boba, a Američka deklaracija se nikad nije potvrdila. To je jedino bitno za nauku, pa kako hoćete.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #100 on: 06-10-2014, 13:44:47 »
Pa, tu se vraćamo na poentu koju je originalni tekst i pravio: da, uprkos prosvetiteljskom i racionalnom osnovu za koji verujemo da na njemu počiva naše savremeno društvo, zapravo doabr deo naših (aksiomatskih) vrednosti nemaju nikakve veze sa naučno proverljivim "istinama" ili makar činjenicama.

A Batina poenta i jeste da bi insistiranje na tome u domenu humanističkih nauka lako moglo da dovede do nekakve antiutopijske situacije  (jer je lakše dokazati da ljudi nisu jednaki nego da su jednaki itd.)

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #101 on: 06-10-2014, 13:50:08 »
pf, za koju nauku...

prirodna nauka kao predmet ima materiju

društvena nauka kao predmet ima ideje


možda scallop priželjkuje nauku bez ideja, al to onda mora otvoreno da prizna

eo npr ideja klasnog konflikta nikad ne može da se eksperimentalno dokaže, jer klasni konflikt nikad nije materijalizovan

štrajk nekih radnika zbog plate nikad nije klasni konflikt već samo štrajk određenog broja radnika

to je ta pozitivistička scallopova definicija nauke

klasni konflikt kao takav ne postoji nigdje, postoje radnici, postoje borbe na ulici, postoje poslodavci, postoje štrajkovi, postoji razlika u dohotcima

al ništa od toga nije klasni konflikt prema kriterijumima koje je scallop ovdje postavio, jer ne možeš prstom da pokažeš na klasni konflikt, niti da ga otkriješ pomoću mikroskopa

takva nauka je potpuni satrap neoliberalizma

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #102 on: 06-10-2014, 14:05:44 »
Sine Pizzo, ne spadaš u kategoriju kojoj je moguće nešto objasniti. Dokaz je da si zaglavio na fakultetu gde se nauka okončava na ideji i teoriji. Da si bio u stanju za nešto više stigao bi do nekog tehničkog fakulteta ili fakulteta prirodnih nauka. Ovi potonji na osnovu postojećih teorija i saznanja postave svoju ideju, razviju hipoteze kojima bi se ona mogla potvrditi, odaberu metodologije i ekperimentalne programe i sprovode ih tako da ih potvrde ili opovrgnu. Takvi su napravili točak, automobil, avion, kompjutere, lekove koji su nam generalno produžili život, a tvoji, sa svojim somnambulnim idejama proizvode ratove, sukobe, siromaštvo i sve ostalo što čovek koji veruje da je jednak i sa istim pravima i mogućnostima ne želi. Jesi li ti siguran da se Boris nalazio na strani na kojoj ti nisi ili si ga video kao dosledog i opredeljenog zastupnika tvojih ideja koje nisi u stanju da generišeš i sprovedeš?
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #103 on: 06-10-2014, 14:07:39 »
Samo, nemoj sad da nam se iznerviraš pa da završimo sa agrumentima o popu Šimi i slično. Poznat si ovde kao mislilac kratkog fitilja i dugih ambicija.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #104 on: 06-10-2014, 14:19:36 »
to što si napisao je potpuna neistina

npr, antropologija bi sigurno potvrdila da su šamani

1. pravili lijekove, trave, meleme
2. izmislili točak, bili matematičari i astronomi, računali kad će biti pomračenje Sunca pa manipulisali rajom
3. prodavali religioznu maglu, pretvarali kraljeve u bogove
4. započinjali ratove, izazivali krvoprolića
5. izigravali scallopa (bez uvrede, jelte) 8-)




s druge strane, ja mogu i sasvim da prihvatim da je uvjerenje o postojanju klasnog konflikta jednako vjerovanju u Boga, samo što je ovo drugo još teže dokazivo, ja ću vrlo lako da živim sa tim... dok s druge strane ne znam kako bilo koja osoba koja vjeruje u eksperiment u društvenim naukama spava noćima.

Kako konkretno to funkcioniše npr na relaciji otac-dijete, mislim budući da bez ovih mambo-džambo društvenjačkih izmišljotina teško da taj odnos uopšte postoji

Mislim, zašto kao obični biološki donator i zastupnik gore besmislenih tvrdnji ne tretiraš svoje dijete u skladu sa takvim svjetonazorom, već kao otac - kao društvena uloga koja je prije svega ideja?

itd itd

besmislenost prirodnjačkih kriterijuma u društvenoj nauci je očita na primjerima koje sam gore naveo, od jednakosti, viška vrijednosti, preko klasnog konflikta, do unutarporodičnih odnosa

ko tvrdi da prvo eksperimentalno mora da se dokaže očinska dužnost, taj neka to prvo primijeni na sopstvenoj djeci. Do tada, sve je licemjerno, i bez popa Šime

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #105 on: 06-10-2014, 15:02:11 »
Potpuno je nedokaziva tvrdnja da sam napisao potpunu neistinu. To i jeste maler tvoje nazovi nauke. Bavite se tvrdnjama umesto dokazima. To je sadržano i u stavu da bi antropologija "sigurno potvrdila" umesto "dokazala". Antropologija je nauka koja je mnogo toga tvrdila, a još više opovrgla. Jednostavno, nema dovoljno podataka da dokaže. Tvrdnja o postignuićima šabanologije je tačna u 5. tački. Ostalo možeš da okačiš o plot.


Sa druge strane, relacija otac-dete je društveno određena na isti način kao i odnos cihlida i njihovih mladunaca. Biologija je dokazala da je taj odnos u funkciji preživljavanja i produženja vrste. Nema razlike između majke koja skače pred voz da bi uklonila svoje dete sa pruge i antilope koja se ispreči ispred hijene da zaštiti svoje mladunče. I to je dokazano prirodno, a ne društveno uslovljeno.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #106 on: 06-10-2014, 15:15:12 »
nijedna antilopa ne ide u Ameriku da posjeti svoje mladunče koje je već mator konj. Takođe, nijedna antilopa ne zna šta su naučna fantastika i kuhinja, budući da su to društveni konstrukti 8-)

s druge strane, ako kojim slučajem ''sigurna potvrda'' nije isto što i ''dokaz'', onda ću svakako samostalno to da koristim kao sinonime, a neka filolozi tvrde šta hoće

dan danas u Africi i Južnoj Americi šamani su ljekari, astronomi, sveštenici i slično, to ne da su poznati fakti već neoborive činjenice. Šamani su vođe i slušaju ih svi. Sigurno ni u jednom plemenu ne sjedi neki politikolog i poziva na rat. Ratovi se ionako vode zbog materijalnih resursa.

reći da društvenjaci izazivaju ratove, hm, jedino gore je da si rekao da to čine i slikari

ali ove antilope koje koriste kompjuter su svakako mnogo zanimljivije. Da nisu imale neke društvene ideje, npr. o izdvojenosti od ostatka životinja i superiornosti nad njima - ne bi imali o čemu sad da naklapaju, kamoli posjećuju mladunčad

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #107 on: 06-10-2014, 15:37:14 »
Kad si već pomenuo, ratove izazivaju i slikari. Izazivaju ih i šimpanze. Daj ti nama reci šta su konkretno politikolozi doprineli čovečanstvu i koji su njihovi dokazi to učinili. Govoriš o konstruktima, a šta ste vi učinili da konstrukti postoje? Cela ta vaša nauka je zamajavanje i ako Meho i dalje misli da postoji nauka koja se ideologizuje, onda su to politikološke nauke i, naravno, ekonomija. Nema, bre, dva politikologa koji imaju iste stavove. Ni duvački orkestar za Guču ne biste mogli da sastavite da odsvira Marš na Drinu.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #108 on: 06-10-2014, 15:53:32 »
nauka koja se ideologizuje, onda su to politikološke nauke i, naravno, ekonomija

hm, a nije li to npr fizika, budući da Galilej i Kopernik nisu imali ni empirijski, kamoli eksperimentalni dokaz da je Zemlja okrugla i da se okreće oko Sunca?

Tek Njutn i Kepler su stvorili 200 godina kasnije neku vrstu uvjerljivog matematičkog dokaza za tvrdnje Galileja i Kopernika

Galilej je bio običan političar, gotovo marketing menadžer, bez pravih dokaza za sopstvene tvrdnje, osoba koja je ideologizovala heliocentrizam, da bi istinsku potvrdu dobila od nekog dvorskog naučnika, zagriženog austrijskog katolika 2 vijeka kasnije

punih 200 godina  vladala je najobičnija ideologija u fizici, i sad neki fizičar da dođe i nešto pametuje politikolozima, S-V-A-Š-T-A

uostalom, ista stvar i sa ''Božijom česticom'', kad je bješe ona ideologizovana, prije četiri decenije?



šta smo ''mi'' učinili 8-)

jes čuo za tri grane vlasti? Opšte izbore? Ljudska prava? Slobodu, jednakost, bratstvo? Penzije, socijalnu pomoć, finansiranje eksperimenata iz oblasti fizike? 8-)

štaviše, Platon je odgovoran za nastanak naučne fantastike, hahahhaha


ali da ne zaboravimo antilope, koje su duštveno konstruisane da putuju preko bare, e vala ni fizika nije ništa učinila da njeni fenomeni postoje, sem ako fizičari nisu stvorili univerzum

a ovdje se priča o nauci, pa je samim tim sasvim legitimno da jedna nauka proučava hemijske reakcije, a druga društvene konstrukte, pošto i jedni i drugi mogu biti predmeti istraživanja

no pitanje kako neka antilopa koja se vodi samo eksperimentalno potvrđenim dokazima, ne pusti mladunče čim prohoda, umjesto da ga drži na nekoj psihoemocionalnoj uzici do kraja života, to pitanje ostaje otvoreno

kako neko jedno tvrdi, a drugo radi

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #109 on: 06-10-2014, 15:58:54 »
uostalom, istorija kao scallopu mrska nauka potvrđuje da se djeca počinju tretirati kao anđelčići tek negdje u 15. vijeku, dok prije toga su doživljavana kao mali ljudi, i ubačena u socioekonomski stroj maltene u predpubertetskom periodu, ni malje im još nisu narasle

društvenjaci su odredili fiktivnu cifru od 18. godina kao dan punoljetstva i kraj opšteg obrazovanja

ali najbolje bi bilo da sve to bacimo u vodu, pošto bi eksperimentalno svakako dokazali da i devetogodišnjaci znaju da kopaju kanale i malterišu, nose kablove, hakuju kompjutere, pišu programe...

scallope, mogao bi jedan sf eksperiment da izvedeš, na šta bi to tvoje društvo ličilo

društvo antilopa, radni naziv romana 8-)

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #110 on: 06-10-2014, 16:59:43 »
Nadam se da oni koji čitaju ove postove, ako ih ima, mogu da naslute o čemu je reč. Isto tako se nadam da sam ja bio jasniji. Nigde nisam napisao da neke nauke, odnosno, naučni pristup u njima, ne postoje, nego da su neke opterećene sa više, a neke sa manje stepena slobode, odnosno, parametara koji određuju neki predmet istraživanja. To vodi ka većem stepenu nesigurnosti u zaključcima tih nauka, a samim tim i do lakšeg i češćeg opovrgavanja istih. Naravno, ne bih voleo da neko zaključi da je politikologija u srži nauke, ona je samo još jedan primer savremnog šamanizma. A "Društvo antilopa" je mnogo bolje i jasnije napisala Džejn Auel u romanu "Pleme špiljskog medveda" i manje uspelim nastavcima, a pre nje, još bolje, Roni Ene u "Borbi za vatru". A što se mog pisanja fantastike tiče, mislim da su moji romani najbolji dokazi koliko je u njoj potrebno poznavanje svih aktuelnih nauka, a ne samo jedne.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #111 on: 06-10-2014, 17:18:15 »
pa ja upravo gore rekoh da je najveći primjer brutalne zloupotrebe slobode i totalnog ideologizovanja predmeta istraživanja upravo fizika i upravo Galilej

veća manipulacija nije zabilježena ni kod apologeta nacional-socijalizma

ono što sam ja na prilično netačnu konstataciju o stepenima naučne slobode odgovorio, jeste da su prirodna i društvena nauka posebna polja, i da ne mogu biti tretirana istim kriterijumima, jer niti su ljudi mašine ili ugljen-monoksid, niti je antilopa ljudsko biće. Samim tim, pravila koja društvena nauka mora da poštuje ne može da određuje fizičar i obrnuto.

Posebna polja, posebna pravila, posebne vrijednosti, posebne zakonitosti

ako je eksperiment neka faca u prirodnim naukama možda je tek prosjak u društvenim

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #112 on: 06-10-2014, 17:27:54 »
Jedino što je Galilej jedva izvukao glavu, a ovim drugima smo jedva došli glave.
Ukupno, mislim da sam ja manje manipulisao od tebe i da su moji stavovi bili tačniji.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #113 on: 06-10-2014, 17:34:36 »
reko bih da ti prije svega to uvjeravaš sebe u posljednja dva posta, ja sam prilično jasno pokazao kako neka ideja, npr ideja jednakosti, uvjetuje i postojanje ljudskih prava, i promjenu tretmana djece, koju su npr aristokrate u 17. vijeku vodile vezane na uzici, kako se na temelju toga gradi prostor za demokratizaciju društva, stvaraju drugačije društvene institucije, nastaje fenomen penzija, socijalne pomoći itd...

dakle, ako bi to preveli u neki ''inženjerski'' jezik, ideja jednakosti je ekvivalentna otkriću točka ili tako nečega, a bez toga nema ni automobila, iliti demokratije, a jednakost su ''sklepali'' politikolozi, pošto se u prirodi ne može otkriti, kamoli eksperimentalno dokazati

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #114 on: 06-10-2014, 17:50:45 »
Ako ne postoji u prirodi onda je od vrlo malog značaja za prirodne nauke. Ali i dalje to nema mnogo veze s tvojom tezom, koja je ako se ne varam da je neke stvari nemoguće empirijski potvrditi, nego prosto moramo da verujemo filozofu, i da to tako uzmemo kao zakon. Izvini, ali ako nema empirijske potvrde onda ne može biti zakon, i to mu je to.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #115 on: 06-10-2014, 18:03:30 »
Mac, Bati prilično nije jasno da je prirodnim i tehničkim naukama cilj predikcija, a druđtvenim tumačenje.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #116 on: 06-10-2014, 18:42:05 »
upravo tekst koji je postavio Meho ne ide u prilog tvrdnje da prirodne nauke imaju bog zna kakvu moć predikcije, ali valja ga, jelte, pročitati kako treba

mac, jednakost je aksiom, ''zakon'' bi već bilo nešto drugo, npr

ako eksperimentalno dokažemo nejednakost, to podrazumijeva destrukciju onih društvenih institucija koje mogu da zahvale svoje postojanje postulatu jednakosti

ili npr u slučaju prirodnih nauka, prvo je nastala ideja progresa pa tek onda dokazi tog progresa

jedan društvenjak bi se uvijek držao teze da bez ideje progresa nijedan naučnik nema motivaciju da stvara bilo šta, pa, jelte, čak i fizičari duguju društvenjacima za razvoj svoje oblasti

kao što duguju Platonu za razvoj matematike

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #117 on: 06-10-2014, 18:57:03 »
Ti ne znaš ni šta je aksiom. O čemu mi to pričamo? Meho je postavio članak u kome se upozorava da nauka nije baš tako poudana kako neko želi da postavi. Isti članak sam ti mogao i ja napisati. Ako je sumnja u korenu nauke, onda nema ideologizacije. Naučna predikcija tako nije apsolut, ona je tačna u nekom procentu, što više promenljivih to manja tačnost. A Platon nije imao pojma o matematici. Nije znao ni geografiju, jebala ga Atlantida, plagirao Kritiju. O društvu je znao onoliko koliko je viđao kroz prozor.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #118 on: 06-10-2014, 19:11:22 »
pojede mi forum post, u svkom slučaju, što se tiče predikcije i vjerovatnoće kod prirdnih nauka, tekst je rekao svoje

 While it is a fact that increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere leads, all else equal, to higher atmospheric temperatures, the idea that we can predict the impact of global warming — and anti-global warming policies! — 100 years from now is sheer lunacy.


što se Platona tiče, ko ne vidi da je Platon bog matematike, da bez njegove teorije ideja matematika se ne bi ni razvila, da je matematika užasno apstraktna i spekulativna, da bi bez Platona ostala u nekom pragmatičnom domenu a ona je to odavno prevazišla, ušla u sulude konstrukcije, diferencijale i slično, što u prirodnom svijetu niko prije nekoliko stotina ili par hiljada godia nije mogao da zabilježi

šta je korijen broja 9, čemu to konkretno služi? Imaš li kakav točak sa tim korijenjem? Nejednačine su prirodna nauka?

Nesporno je da je matematika čitavo vrijeme obitavala u platonističkom univerzumu koji je potpuna teorija bez ikakve prakse, da matematika nije čak gledala ni kroz taj famozni prozor o kojem lupaš, pa to ako ne znaš onda šta znaš?

Bez Platona nema današnje matematike, bez današnje matematike nema ni fizike

JasonBezArgonauta

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #119 on: 06-10-2014, 20:58:50 »
Evo aksiom:

Društvene nauke - veština palamuđenja koja se nevešto prodaje pod nauka.

Priodne nauke - Nauka bre!
Čini mi se da ovaj zid izgleda drugačije. Bendžamine, da li su Sedam zapovesti iste kao što su bile ranije?

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #120 on: 06-10-2014, 22:37:51 »
što se onda nisi nazvao KopernikBezGalileja!?!?!??! 8-)



JasonBezArgonauta

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #121 on: 06-10-2014, 23:51:20 »
Štono kažu braća Grim, da vam bolje zvučim :evil:
Čini mi se da ovaj zid izgleda drugačije. Bendžamine, da li su Sedam zapovesti iste kao što su bile ranije?

BladeRunner

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #122 on: 07-10-2014, 08:52:55 »
Pizzobatto
Quote
što se Platona tiče, ko ne vidi da je Platon bog matematike, da bez njegove teorije ideja matematika se ne bi ni razvila, da je matematika užasno apstraktna i spekulativna, da bi bez Platona ostala u nekom pragmatičnom domenu a ona je to odavno prevazišla, ušla u sulude konstrukcije, diferencijale i slično, što u prirodnom svijetu niko prije nekoliko stotina ili par hiljada godia nije mogao da zabilježi


Uh Bato... U svakoj "Istoriji matematike" te uče ko je i zašto bio prvi matematičar. Pa onda tu otkriješ neke zapanjujuće stvari o tome kako si u Egiptu, Mesopotamiji i slično imao prilično razvijenu matematiku, ali ipak se kao prvi matematičar sa pravom uzima Tales iz Mileta. To ti je negdje 5-6 v. prije nove ere. Zašto? Zato što je Tales uveo ključno: DOKAZ. I zato je Tales prvi matematičar, Bog matematike (bezvezna sintagma), a ne neko drugi. I pazi, prije Talesa si imao različite kulture koje su mogle da ti predvide pomračenje Sunca, mjesečeve mijene i trista nekih stvari za koje ti treba ozbiljan račun. Ali džaba - nije bilo dokaza, nije bilo onog ključnog: aksiomatskog dokazivanja.

Tales je prvi i veliki BAŠ ZATO što je "pročistio" matematiku od mistike i sveo je na logičku igru. Imaš skup aksioma (sam ih definišeš i kažeš sebi - odavde ne idem nazad), imaš pravila logike - ajde da vidimo kuda će te odvesti. I to je sve.

Platon je došao par vjekova kasnije. Znači, veze nema sa onim na čemu se zaista zasniva matematika, ama baš nijedna istorije matematike ga ne spominje u kontekstu u kome ga spominješ ti. I još jedno: da to dvoje (mistika i matematika) ne idu zajedno, i kako jedno počinje da koči drugo, najbolje ti pokazuje Pitagora. Mističar koji smatra da je sve u prirodi odnos brojeva, pa nalazi vezu između oktava i dužine žice. Bog razlomaka, tako reći. I onda, posred toga, otkrije da se korijen iz dva ne može izraziti kao odnos dva broja (smatra se da je to prvi reductio ad absurdum dokaz, koga je pribilježio - Aristotel). To je matematika. I onda, znaš tu priču sigurno bolje od mene, to maltene izazove nervni slom u školi, čuva se kao super-tajno znanje, narušava skladnost nebeskih sfera i muziku okeanskih dubina, tandara-mandara, jedan čovjek glavu izgubi zbog toga (ako je vjerovati "Papagajevoj teoremi" bacili su ga u more sa broda), i pretvori se to u mistiku samo takvu. Ali: taj dokaz preživi, zato što poštuje ona pravila igre koja je postavio Tales. E, tu gdje imaš dokaz, to ti je Pitagora matematičar. To gdje ovoga bace sa palube, to ti je sociologija.
All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #123 on: 07-10-2014, 09:05:33 »
E, tu gdje imaš dokaz, to ti je Pitagora matematičar. To gdje ovoga bace sa palube, to ti je sociologija.


 xjap
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #124 on: 07-10-2014, 13:23:53 »
Renaissance Europe urgently needed a better calendar, and the Church, for which the calendar was indispensable in administrative and liturgical matters, undertook its reform. Such reform depended on astronomical precision. Copernicus, asked to advise the papacy on the problem, responded that the existing confused state of astronomical science precluded any immediate effective reform. Copernicus’s technical proficiency as an astronomer and mathematician enabled him to recognize the inadequacies of the existing cosmology. Yet this alone would not have forced him to devise a new system. Another, equally competent astronomer might well have perceived the problem of the planets as intrinsically insoluble, too complex and refractory for any mathematical system to comprehend. It would seem to be above all Copernicus’s participation in the intellectual atmosphere of Renaissance Neoplatonism—and specifically his embrace of the Pythagorean conviction that nature was ultimately comprehensible in simple and harmonious mathematical terms of a transcendent, eternal quality—that pressed and guided him toward innovation. The divine Creator, whose works were everywhere good and orderly, could not have been slipshod with the heavens themselves.
Provoked by such considerations, Copernicus painstakingly reviewed all the ancient scientific literature he could acquire, much of which had recently become available in the Humanist revival and the transfer of Greek manuscripts from Constantinople to the West. He found that several Greek philosophers, notably of Pythagorean and Platonist background, had proposed a moving Earth, although none had developed the hypothesis to its full astronomical and mathematical conclusions. Hence Aristotle’s geocentric conception had not been the only judgment of the revered Greek authorities. Armed with this sense of kinship with an ancient tradition, inspired by the Neoplatonists’ exalted conception of the Sun, and further supported by the university Scholastics’ critical appraisals of Aristotelian physics, Copernicus hypothesized a Sun-centered universe with a planetary Earth and mathematically worked out the implications.

...

Although Kepler’s mathematical and Galileo’s observational support assured the success of the heliocentric theory in astronomy, the theory still lacked a more encompassing conceptual scheme, a coherent cosmology within which it could fit. Ptolemy had been satisfactorily replaced, but not Aristotle. That the Earth and the other planets moved in elliptical orbits around the Sun seemed clear, but if there were no circling aetheric spheres, then how did the planets, including the Earth, move at all? And what now kept them from flying out of their orbits? If the Earth was moving, thereby destroying the basis of Aristotelian physics, then why did terrestrial objects always fall toward its surface? If the stars were so numerous and distant, then how large was the universe? What was its structure, and where was its center, if any? What happened to the long-recognized celestial-terrestrial division if the Earth was planetary like other heavenly bodies, and if the heavenly bodies now appeared to have Earth-like qualities? And where was God in this cosmos? Until these weighty questions were answered, the Copernican revolution had shattered the old cosmology, but it had not yet forged a new one.
Both Kepler and Galileo had provided vital insights and tools with which to approach these problems. Both had believed and then demonstrated that the universe was organized mathematically, and that scientific progress was achieved by rigorously comparing mathematical hypotheses with empirical observations. And Copernicus’s work had already made the most fertile suggestion for the new cosmology; by making the Earth a planet to explain the Sun’s apparent motion, he implied that the heavens and the Earth should not and could not be considered absolutely distinct. But Kepler went further, and directly applied notions of terrestrial force to celestial phenomena.

he Ptolemaic (and Copernican) circular orbits had always been considered “natural motions” in the Aristotelian sense: by their elemental nature, the aetheric spheres moved in perfect circles, just as the heavy elements of earth and water moved downward and the light elements of air and fire moved upward. Kepler’s ellipses, however, were not circular and constant, but involved the planets in changes of speed and direction at each point in their orbits. Elliptical motion in a heliocentric universe required a new explanation beyond that of natural motion.
Kepler suggested as an alternative the concept of a constantly imposed force. Influenced as always by the Neoplatonic exaltation of the Sun, he believed the Sun to be an active source of movement in the universe. He therefore postulated an anima motrix, a moving force akin to astrological “influences,” which emanated from the Sun and moved the planets—most powerfully close to the Sun, less so when distant. But Kepler still had to explain why the orbits curved in ellipses. Having absorbed William Gilbert’s recently published work on magnetism, with its thesis that the Earth itself was a giant magnet, Kepler extended this principle to all celestial bodies and hypothesized that the Sun’s anima motrix combined with its own magnetism and that of the planets to create the elliptical orbits. Kepler thereby made the first proposal that the planets in their orbits were moved by mechanical forces, rather than by the automatic geometrical motion of the Aristotelian-Ptolemaic spheres. Despite its relatively primitive form, Kepler’s concept of the solar system as a self-governing machine based on notions of terrestrial dynamics correctly anticipated the emerging cosmology.
In the meantime, Galileo had pursued this mechanical-mathematical mode of analysis on the terrestrial plane with systematic rigor and extraordinary success. Like his fellow Renaissance scientists Kepler and Copernicus, Galileo had imbibed from the Neoplatonic Humanists the belief that the physical world could be understood in geometrical and arithmetic terms. With Pythagorean conviction he declared that “the Book of Nature is written in mathematical characters.” But with his more down-to-earth sensibility, Galileo developed mathematics less as a mystical key to the heavens than as a straightforward tool for the understanding of matter in motion and for the defeat of his Aristotelian academic opponents. Although Kepler’s understanding of celestial motion was more advanced than that of Galileo (who, like Copernicus, still believed in self-sustaining circular motion), it was Galileo’s insights into terrestrial dynamics that, when applied by his successors to the heavens, would begin to solve the physical problems created by Copernicus’s innovation.
Aristotle’s physics, based on perceptible qualities and verbal logic, still ruled most contemporary scientific thinking and dominated the universities. But Galileo’s revered model was Archimedes the mathematical physicist (whose writings had been recently rediscovered by the Humanists), rather than Aristotle the descriptive biologist. To combat the Aristotelians, Galileo developed both a new procedure for analyzing phenomena and a new basis for testing theories. He argued that to make accurate judgments concerning nature, scientists should consider only precisely measurable “objective” qualities (size, shape, number, weight, motion), while merely perceptible qualities (color, sound, taste, touch, smell) should be ignored as subjective and ephemeral. Only by means of an exclusively quantitative analysis could science attain certain knowledge of the world. In addition, while Aristotle’s empiricism had been predominantly a descriptive and, especially as exaggerated by later Aristotelians, logico-verbal approach, Galileo now established the quantitative experiment as the final test of hypotheses. Finally, to further penetrate nature’s mathematical regularities and true character, Galileo employed, developed, or invented a host of technical instruments—lens, telescope, microscope, geometric compass, magnet, air thermometer, hydrostatic balance. The use of such instruments gave a new dimension to empiricism unknown to the Greeks, a dimension that undercut both the theories and the practice of the Aristotelian professors. In Galileo’s vision, free exploration of an impersonal mathematical universe was to replace the hidebound academic tradition’s interminable deductive justification of Aristotle’s organismic universe.
Employing the new categories and new methodology, Galileo set out to demolish the spurious dogma of academic physics. Aristotle had believed that a heavier body would fall at a faster rate than a lighter one, because of its elemental propensity to seek the center of the Earth as its natural position—the heavier the body, the greater the propensity. Through his repeated application of mathematical analysis to physical experiments, Galileo first refuted this tenet and later formulated the law of uniform accelerated motion in falling bodies—
a motion that was independent of the weight or composition of the bodies. Building on the impetus theory of Aristotle’s Scholastic critics Buridan and Oresme, Galileo analyzed projectile motion and developed the crucial idea of inertia. Contrary to Aristotle, who held that all bodies sought their natural place and that nothing continued to move otherwise without a constantly applied external push, Galileo stated that just as a body at rest would tend to remain so unless otherwise pushed, so too would a moving body tend to remain in constant motion unless otherwise stopped or deflected. Force was required to explain only change in motion, not constant motion. In this way, he met one of the Aristotelians’ chief physical arguments against a planetary Earth—that objects on a moving Earth would be forcibly knocked about, and that a projectile thrown directly upward from a moving Earth would necessarily land at some distance away from its point of departure. Since neither of these phenomena was observed, they concluded that the Earth must be stationary. Through his concept of inertia, however, Galileo demonstrated that a moving Earth would automatically endow all its objects and projectiles with the Earth’s own motion, and therefore the collective inertial motion would be imperceptible to anyone on the Earth.

...


It is no small irony that Aristotle, the greatest naturalist and empirical scientist of antiquity, whose work had served as the sustaining impulse of Western science for two millennia, was jettisoned by the new science under the impetus of a romantic Renaissance Platonism—from Plato, the speculative idealist who most systematically wished to leave the world of the senses.
...


The Scientific Revolution from Copernicus to Newton had depended upon and been inspired by a series of strategies and assumptions derived directly from Plato, his Pythagorean predecessors, and his Neoplatonic successors: the search for perfect timeless mathematical forms that underlay the phenomenal world, the a priori belief that planetary movements conformed to continuous and regular geometrical figures, the instruction to avoid being misled by the apparent chaos of the empirical heavens, a confidence in the beauty and simple elegance of the true solution to the problem of the planets, the exaltation of the Sun as image of the creative Godhead, the proposals of nongeocentric cosmologies, the belief that the universe was permeated with divine reason and that God’s glory was especially revealed in the heavens. Euclid, whose geometry formed a basis both for Descartes’s rationalist philosophy and the entire Copernican-Newtonian paradigm, had been a Platonist whose work was fully constructed on Platonic principles. Modern scientific method itself, as developed by Kepler and Galileo, was founded on the Pythagorean faith that the language of the physical world was one of number, which provided a rationale for the conviction that the empirical observation of nature and the testing of hypotheses should be systematically focused through quantitative measurement. Moreover, all modern science implicitly based itself upon Plato’s fundamental hierarchy of reality, in which a diverse and ever-changing material nature was viewed as being ultimately obedient to certain unifying laws and principles that transcend the phenomena they govern. Above all, modern science was the inheritor of the basic Platonic belief in the rational intelligibility of the world order, and in the essential nobility of the human quest to discover that order.
But those Platonic assumptions and strategies eventually led to the creation of a paradigm whose thoroughgoing naturalism left little room for the mystical tenor of Platonic metaphysics. The numinosity of the mathematical patterns celebrated by the Pythagorean-Platonic tradition now disappeared, regarded in retrospect as an empirically unverifiable and superfluous appendage to the straightforward scientific understanding of the natural world

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #125 on: 07-10-2014, 14:09:30 »
Ovo kao da je Meho postavio. Imaš li ti nešto da kažeš? Pun mi je torbak kad na engleskom tumače veličinu Grške. Shvatio ti to ili ne.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #126 on: 07-10-2014, 14:27:42 »
sve sam ranije objasnio na srpskom svojim riječima, ti ne želiš da razumiješ ili nisi sposoban da razumiješ

eo ti sad original, uživaj, brzo se čita, a ako te baš mrzi eto ti boldovani crveni dio

nije toliko dugačak, a možda nešto i naučiš ;)

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #127 on: 07-10-2014, 14:47:40 »
Ne ide, pa to ti je. Samo si postao dosadan i pokvario jednu dobru zabavu.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #128 on: 07-10-2014, 15:06:53 »
navikao sam da pored svakog argumenta kojem ne možeš da nađeš rupu prođeš kao pored turskog groblja, to je sastavni dio tvog intelektualnog integriteta, to jest nepostojanja istog, a da li je zabavno ili dosadno je svakako irelevantno ;)

mislim da je ovim sasvim dokazano da je tebi omraženi Platon temelj moderne nauke, pa i matematike i fizike

uostalom, ko tvrdi suprotno neka zasuče rukave i dokaže

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #129 on: 07-10-2014, 15:14:12 »
fenomenalno je da je topik otvoren tekstom o Fajerabendu, i da to nije ama baš ništa uticalo na stavove 7 godina kasnije

btw, mislim da se njegova prevedena knjiga može naći na netu

"Kako se zaštititi od nauke?"

Pol Fajerabend, filozof nauke

Anarhistički pogled Pola Fajerabenda
otkrio je totalitarizam u naučnom stilu mišljenja

Piše: Jovana Gligorijević


Naučni stil mišljenja je dominantan jer nauka u potpunosti spoznaje konture i tokove funkcionisanja prirode, društva i čoveka. Autoritet nauke u hijerarhiji svih delatnosti ljudskog roda danas je neprikosnoven.

Pa, ipak, treba li joj poklanjati slepo poverenje?

Iz ugla savremenog čoveka bilo bi sumanuto negirati način na koji naučne činjenice opisuju svet. Ali, ovde nije reč o tome, već o posledicama koje strogo naučni pogled na svet ima po vrednosni sistem ljudi. Strogo gledano, najizrazitija karakteristika nauke jeste njen ateistički odnos prema prirodi i čoveku. Na prvi pogled, ništa strašno:
"ako nauka kaže da boga nema, onda ga nema,

 i šta sad" - nastavljamo dalje –

 verujući neka veruju, ostali ne moraju."

Etički problem

Međutim, pogledajmo stvari ovako: nauka je dominantni način mišljenja u savremenoj kulturi, ona u potpunosti “pokriva” sve regione prirode, društva, ljudske delatnosti, tako da bi se moglo reći da je način života u našem dobu strogo-naučni. I upravo tu nas čeka “kvaka 22” u ovoj priči: nauka, iako modus vivendi savremenog čoveka, ne poseduje nikakav etički karakter.

Austrijski filozof nauke Pol Fajerabend (1924-1994), prvi je uočio ovaj problem, pa je najveći deo svog rada posvetio demistifikaciji autoriteta moderne nauke. Fajerabend  ne gleda na nauku kao na vrhunac ljudske delatnosti, ona za njega nema nikakav povlašćen položaj, već je samo još jedna u nizu, ravnopravna sa svim ostalim. 

“Želim da odbranim društvo i njegove pripadnike od svih ideologija, uključujući i nauku. Sve ideologije moraju se posmatrati u perspektivi. One ne smeju biti uzete suviše ozbiljno. Treba ih shvatiti kao bajke koje imaju da kažu mnogo interesantnih stvari, ali koje u sebi takođe sadrže i gnusne laži, ili kao etičke propise koji mogu biti korisna praktična pravila, ali su kobni kada se slede doslovno” - rekao je Fajerabend u svom predavanju pod nazivom “Kako zaštititi društvo od nauke”.


Šovinizam nauka

U knjizi “Protiv metode”, Fajerabend kaže da u periodu od XVII do početka XX veka, šovinizam nauka nije postojao.

Nauka nije bila totalitarna,
jer se država još uvek nije snažno opredelila za nju.

Pravi značaj nauka tada se ogledao u praksi: imale su snagu oslobađanja i istinskog napretka, a u isto vreme, ograničavale su uticaj drugih ideologija – naučnici su u to vreme bili borci za istinu i slobodu. Međutim, po Fajerabendovom mišljenju, sa naukom se dogodilo ono što se inače često sa ideologijama događa: izopačila se u sopstvenu suprotnost – totalitarizam.

Razvoj nauke u XIX i XX veku, a naročito posle Drugog svetskog rata, po Fajerabendu pokazuje da trijumf određenih ideja i institucija istovremeno znači i njihov kraj, upravo zbog toga što su u pitanju ideologije, to jest, totalitarne institucije. Nauka poprima karakter sistema, odnosno, totalitarnog procesa i postaje sluga tiranske religije ovih ili onih interesa, totalitarnih merila. Konačna posledica jeste da nauka postaje rigidna koliko i one ideologije protiv kojih se borila:

izuzeta je od spoljne kritike, 
a sud naučnika prima se sa slepim poverenjem, 
baš kao što je to nekada bio slučaj sa sudom kardinala ili biskupa. 

Ono što je kompatibilno sa naukom, treba da živi, ono što nije, treba da umre, konstatuje Fajerabend. Predstavnici moderne nauke nesposobni su da kritički misle o sebi. Ovakvu situaciju Fajerabend naziva samoubilačkom narcisoidnošću – najveća moguća sreća svedena je samo na napredak, a napredak je moguće zamisliti bez ikakvog smisla i humaniteta.


Monstrum istine


U predavanju “Kako zaštititi društvo od nauke” Fajerabend se pita da li je ovaj opis pomalo nepravedan prema nauci i nije li on sam predstavio stvar u iskrivljenom svetlu, prećutavši da nauka, iako je postala kruta i prestala da bude instrument promene i oslobađanja, ipak – otkriva istinu.

"Kad se ovo ima u vidu - kaže Fajerabend -
  mogli bismo zaključiti da krutost nauke nije rezultat ljudskog htenja,
  već da leži u prirodi  stvari:
  kad jednom otkrijemo istinu,
  šta nam drugo preostaje osim da je sledimo?" ,

Međutim, Fajerabend nam ubrzo otkriva da stvari uopšte ne stoje tako. Gornji odgovor upotrebljava se uvek kad jedna ideologija želi da pojača veru svojih sledbenkika:

“’Istina’ je tako divno neutralna reč.
  Niko to neće poricati - a ipak niko ne zna šta takav stav znači.   
  Lako je na taj način izvrnuti celu stvar  i preokrenuti - 
  odanost istini u svakodnevnom životu, 
  u odanost Istini te ideologije”,   

kaže Fajerabend i nastavlja: “Naravno, nije tačno da moramo slediti istinu. Mnoge ideje su vodiči ljudskog života. Istina je jedna od njih. Sloboda i duhovna nezavisnost su druge. Ako se istina, kako je neki ideolozi shvataju, sukobljava sa slobodom tada smo u situaciji izbora. Možemo da odbacimo slobodu. Ali možemo da odbacimo i istinu.” U ovom citatu krije se ključna tačka Fajerabendove kritike moderne nauke: ona sputava slobodu mišljenja. A ako nauka sputava slobodu zato što je otkrila istinu, Fajerabendov odgovor glasi: “Postoje bolje stvari nego pronaći i slediti takvog monstruma.”


Dole rezultati! 

“Nauka može da vrši uticaj na društvo, 
 ali samo u onoj meri u kojoj je to dozvoljeno bilo kojoj političkoj
 ili nekoj drugoj grupi za vršenje pritiska na javnost”,

Pol Fajerabend (1924-1994)


Pristalice povlašćenog položaja nauke mogle bi pokušati da se odbrane tvrdnjom da nauka zaslužuje takav položaj zahvaljujući tome što daje rezultate. Međutim, Fajerabend pobija i ovaj argument, tvrdeći da on stoji jedino ako se može uzeti kao činjenica da ništa drugo nikada ne proizvodi rezultate.

Doduše, Fajerabend priznaje da su oblici života različiti od nauke nestali ili su potpuno degenerisani, što onemogućava komparaciju. Ali, po njemu, situacija nije toliko beznadežna:

“Upoznali smo metode medicinske dijagnostike i terapije koji su efikasni (a možda čak i efikasniji nego odgovarajući delovi zapadne medicine) i koji su još uvek zasnovani na ideologiji koja je radikalno različita od ideologije zapadne nauke. Saznali smo da postoje pojave kao što je telepatija i telekineza, koje je naučni pristup jednostavno izbrisao a koje bi mogle biti upotrebljene za istraživanja na jedan potpuno nov način. (…) Takođe, istina je da pojave kao što su telekineza i akupunktura mogu biti na kraju apsorbovane u korpus nauke i na taj način nazvane ‘naučnim’. Ali zapazite da se ovo dešava jedino posle dugog perioda otpora za vreme koga nauka, ne sadržeći još ove fenomene, pokušava da uspostavi kontrolu nad onim oblicima života koji ih sadrže”.

Činjenica da nauka ima rezultate računa se u njenu korist samo ako su ovi rezultati postignuti od same nauke, bez ikakve pomoći sa strane. Međutim, Fajerabend smatra da nauka jedva da ikada postiže rezultate na ovaj način i navodi niz primera koji potkrepljuju ovu tezu:

kada je Kopernik uveo novi pogled na univerzum, 
nije konsultovao naučne prethodnike već -
“jednog ludog pitagorejca” kakav je bio Filolaj, 
mehanika i optika mnogo duguju zanatlijama, 
medicina babicama i vešticama

Fajerabend navodi i jedan savremeniji primer: kada su kineski komunisti vratili na univerzitete i u bolnice tradicionalnu kinesku medicinu, po njegovom mišljenju, rezultati su premašili dostignuća zapadne medicine. 

Po Fajerabendu, ne postoji ni jedan jedini argument koji bi mogao da bude upotrebljen u prilog ove izuzetne uloge koju nauka danas igra u društvu. Nauka je učinila mnogo stvari, ali to su učinile i druge ideologije.

Nauka je samo jedna od mnogih ideologija
koje pokreću društvo, 
i treba da bude tretirana kao takva.


Naučni anarhizam


Najvažnija konsekvenca Fajerabendovog razmatranja jeste to da je neophodno formalno odvajanje države i nauke, baš u smislu u kome sada postoji formalna podvojenost države i crkve. “Nauka može da vrši uticaj na društvo, ali samo u onoj meri u kojoj je to dozvoljeno bilo kojoj političkoj ili nekoj drugoj grupi za vršenje pritiska na javnost”, kaže on. Naučnici mogu biti konsultovani u vezi sa važnim projektima, ali krajnji sud mora biti ostavljen demokratski izabranim savetodavnim telima koja se sastoje od laika.

Na logično pitanje da li će laici biti sposobni da dođu do ispravnog suda, Fajerabend odgovara da je to sasvim izvesno, jer su kompetencija, komplikovanost i uspeh nauke mnogo preuveličani. Reč je o disciplini koju može da ispituje i kritikuje bilo ko od zainteresovanih. Ona izgleda teška i duboka samo zbog sistematske kampanje zamagljivanja koju vode naučnici.

Fajerabend smatra da je nauka u suštini anarhistički poduhvat.

Anarhizam možda nije najsrećnija pozicija u smislu političke filozofije nije najatraktivniji, ali se pokazuje kao najbolji lek za epistemologiju i za filozofiju nauke.

Epistemološki anarhizam razlikuje se
i od skepticizma i od političkog (religijskog) anarhizma, 
jer isključuje nasilje,  pa je zato najbliži dadaizmu.


Epistemološki anarhista se ne usteže da brani
ni najtrivijalnije, ni najneumerenije iskaze.


To je očigledno i kod samog Fajerabenda koji se ne ustručava da napiše: “Tri puta ‘ura’ za kalifornijske fundamentaliste koji su uspeli u tome da se dogmatska formulacija teorije evolucije ukloni iz udžbenika i da se prikaz Postanja uvrsti u njih.”

Naravno, Fajerabend naglašava da je svestan da bi oni postali isto tako šovinistički i totalitaristički nastrojeni kao što su naučnici danas, samo kada bi im bila data šansa da sami upravljaju društvom:

“Ideologije su čudesne -
 kada se upotrebljavaju zajedno sa drugim ideologijama.

 One postaju dosadne i doktrinarne
 čim njihove zasluge dovedu do uklanjanja njihovih oponenata.”


Slepa vera u demokratiju


Pozicija nauke među svim oblastima humanističke delatnosti postala je centralna tokom XX veka. U tim i takvim okolnostima, potpuno smo okrenuti zemaljskim, materijalnim stvarima, verujući da će upravo nauka u najvećoj meri doprineti poboljšanju kvaliteta ljudskog života.

Suština Fajerabendove filozofije jeste da nauku treba podvrći demokratskoj kontroli i  humanizovati je, to jest učiniti je ljudskom, dostojnom čoveka, a to određuju svi građani u slobodnom društvu  u demokratiji, a ne samo eksperti.

Stručnjake plaćaju građani
i zato građani treba da imaju nad njima kontrolu, 
kao i nad drugima koji su u službi javnosti .

Međutim, Fajerabendovi kritičari uočili su u ovim razmatranjima jednu ozbiljnu manu – pojednostavljivanje: s jedne strane stoji bauk nauke, u kojoj Fajerabend vidi samo ono što je prinudno i restriktivno, a s druge, on suviše idealizuje demokratiju, posmatrajući je kao utopiju i idealno rešenje za sev probleme proistekla iz dominacije nauke.

Priznajući da on s pravom nema poverenja u nauku, 
Fajerabendovi kritičari pitaju se -

"da li s pravom poklanja puno poverenje demokratiji?"

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #130 on: 07-10-2014, 16:30:09 »
Iz nepostojećeg intelektualnog integriteta poručujem ti da bar naučiš interpunkciju.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #131 on: 07-10-2014, 17:59:03 »
Kako je tačno dokazano da je Platon utemeljivač nauke? Evo ja kao čitao ono gore, i crno i crveno, i ne vidim utemljenost tog utemeljivanja. Aristotel je smatrao da je Zemlja centar svemira, Platon je pretpostavljao da nije, i zato je Platon utemeljivač nauke?

Zapravo, zar je toliko važno ko je utemeljivač? Zar nije bitnije šta su tačno temelji, a ne ko ih utemeljava? Nauka je sistem za skupljanje znanja. Taj sistem se zasniva na tome da se svako znanje mora empirijski potvrditi, i to ne jednom, nego bilo kad. Ako znanje nije potvrđeno onda ne možemo zaista govoriti o znanju, zar ne? Šta to znači da nešto "znaš", a da nemaš potvrdu o tome?

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #132 on: 07-10-2014, 18:04:51 »
Ni ti nemaš intelektualni integriztet. xrofl xrofl xrofl
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #133 on: 07-10-2014, 20:49:05 »
o bre, mac, pa u temeljima se mogu naći samo principi, a ne neko posebno Platonovo uvjerenje

a valjda si u tekstu primijetio da Galilej i Kopernik NISU imali nikakvu empirijsku potvrdu da je Zemlja okrugla i da se okreće oko Sunca, pa se i postavilo pitanje kakvo je to znanje koje je potvrdio tek Kepler 200 godina kasnije?

Platonističko znanje, eto da odgovorim sam sebi

scallope, ta interpunkciona intervencija na živoj forumskoj riječi je stvarno potez očajnika, bolje pročitaj tekst tri puta, ponavljanje je majka znanja

dosta turskog groblja, hvatanja slamki, šah mat si dobio još prije dva poteza, dobro razmisli možeš li se izvući 8-)

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #134 on: 07-10-2014, 20:56:14 »
Ja mogu, ali ti ne možeš. Eno, Ghoul me je nazvao ludim zbog preganjanja sa tobom, a tebe maloumnim idiotom. Idi i objasni njemu to oko Platona.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #135 on: 07-10-2014, 21:16:00 »
koga boli i rod i pol od Platona bi rikno

Ja mogu

pa ajde

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #136 on: 07-10-2014, 22:19:15 »
o bre, mac, pa u temeljima se mogu naći samo principi, a ne neko posebno Platonovo uvjerenje

a valjda si u tekstu primijetio da Galilej i Kopernik NISU imali nikakvu empirijsku potvrdu da je Zemlja okrugla i da se okreće oko Sunca, pa se i postavilo pitanje kakvo je to znanje koje je potvrdio tek Kepler 200 godina kasnije?

Tako je, ja o principima i pričam. Evo da ponovim, princip nauke je da svako znanje mora da bude empirijski potvrđeno, inače nije zaista "znanje". Platon je davao pretpostavke, koje su nekad tačne, nekad pogrešne, ali nije se baš bavio empirijskom potvrdom svojh uverenja, i zato Platon ne može biti utemeljitelj nauke.

Ne znam samo zašto mešaš pitanje kog je oblika Zemlja sa pitanjem šta se kreće oko čega. To nije isto. Galilej i Kopernik se nisu bavili oblikom Zemlje jer je to ustanovljeno još u antičko doba. Feničani su već primetili da ima tu nečeg, Platon je objavio u šta on veruje (kugla u sred nebesa, to jest svemira), Aristotel je ponudio par argumenata u korist hipoteze, ali tek je Eratosten zaista izračunao prečnik zemlje, koristeći logiku, i uz početnu pretpostavku da je Sunce toliko daleko da se može smatrati da su Sunčevi zraci paralelni na svakoj tački Zemlje. Znači nije "ja verujem da je tako, a vi vidite šta ćete s time", nego "uz tu-i-tu pretpostavku i takvo-i-takvo merenje dobijamo takav-i-takav zaključak". Nije Platon, nego Aristotel i Eratosten. Tokom srednjeg veka i drugi naučnici su dolazili do empirijskih potvrda o sferičnom obliku Zemlje, i u doba Galileja to se više nije dovodilo u pitanje.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #137 on: 07-10-2014, 22:31:28 »
Ma, jok! Platon je sve zapisao sa Sokratovih kolena.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #138 on: 07-10-2014, 22:35:51 »
ok, rekao bih da je u ovome nesporazum, ovo je onaj crveni dio, malo skraćen


''the search for perfect timeless mathematical forms that underlay the phenomenal world, the a priori belief that planetary movements conformed to continuous and regular geometrical figures, the instruction to avoid being misled by the apparent chaos of the empirical heavens''

Modern scientific method itself, as developed by Kepler and Galileo, was founded on the Pythagorean faith that the language of the physical world was one of number, which provided a rationale for the conviction that the empirical observation of nature and the testing of hypotheses should be systematically focused through quantitative measurement. Moreover, all modern science implicitly based itself upon Plato’s fundamental hierarchy of reality, in which a diverse and ever-changing material nature was viewed as being ultimately obedient to certain unifying laws and principles that transcend the phenomena they govern. Above all, modern science was the inheritor of the basic Platonic belief in the rational intelligibility of the world order, and in the essential nobility of the human quest to discover that order.




dakle, moja poenta, i uopšte poenta različitih metateorijskih promišljanja nauke, je da ovo boldovano uopšte ne može da se uzme zdravo za gotovo, iako ih današnji prirodnjaci tako doživljavaju


u kom trenutku neko prirodno pomisli da broj može da objasni univerzum, koji je empirijski sasvim nedokučiv bio do 20. vijeka, a nije ni danas nešto posebno izbliza sagledan


stav da materijalni svijet može da se računa, da su matematika i priroda kompatibilne stvari


nije uopšte zdravorazumski već ideološki momenat u nauci


bez obzira što se najčešće ispostavlja da je istinit, on je isprva ideološki, i bio je ideološki kod Galileja, a dokazan tek kod Keplera


eto npr ovo sa regularnim geometrijskim figurama, to i jeste ideološki momemnat, jer kod Galileja i Kopernika zvijezde su savršeno kružne, nisu elipsaste ili kako već se kasnije ispostavlja


savršeni geometrijski red je pretpostavljen kod njih dvojice, i do dana današnjeg je netačan i ideološki orijentisan. Galijej i Kopernik su svoj posao radili potpuno uvjereni da rade sa loptama a ne sa planetama koje nisu baš tako savršenog oblika


ja ne znam drugačije da objasnim, sem tako.


ako tvrdiš da je naučni proces nešto što ide u dva koraka
1. postaviš pretpostavke
2. empirijski ih provjeriš


onda je poenta teksta da postoji još jedan korak, određeni način razmišljanja, određeni sistem misli, u ovom slučaju platonistički univerzum sa savršeno uređenim figurama, koji je moguće kvantitativno izmjeriti, provjeriti, gdje apstraktan broj može da ima vrijednost za materijalni svijet itd...


to je poseban korak, i on je ideološki korak

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #139 on: 07-10-2014, 23:00:01 »
Ali taj ideološki deo nije suštinski deo nauke. To je možda dobra poštapalica do određenog momenta, ali za neka nova saznanja počinje da ti smeta i onda nemaš izbora nego da ga napustiš. Svemir ne mora da bude elegantan. Heck, svemir ne mora da bude ni konzistentan, ali dok ne budemo opovrgnuti uzimamo da jeste (i tu se razdvajamo od kreacionista).

Elem, ako jedan korak u sticanju znanja nekad sprovodimo a nekad odbacujemo onda taj korak ne može biti suštinski, nešto bez čega se ne može. Empirija je jedina ideologija u nauci. Sve što mi znamo je samo model onoga što zaista jeste, i taj model možemo približiti onome što zaista jeste jedino poredeći ta dva, a ta dva poredimo empirijskom potvrdom.

Uzgred, pre ova dva koraka koja si nabrojao obično ide korak 0. primetimo u prirodi nešto što nije u skladu sa trenutnim saznanjem.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #140 on: 07-10-2014, 23:09:30 »


u suštini, mogu da prihvatim da je to ''poštapalica'' koja se s vremena na vrijeme odbacuje, ali na primjeru Galileja to je očigledno imalo veći uticaj od same empirije

u stvari, postavlja se pitanje da li je češće presudna bila empirija ili poštapalica, i Tomas Kun i spomenuti Fajerabend smatraju da je poštapalica češće bila presudna

pritom je Kun fizičar, a Fajerabend je filozof, dakle nije samo da samo društvenjaci to umišljaju. Kun ima praktične primjere, i svakako preporučujem tu knjigu

da ne pričamo o tome da, iako je to nategnuto ali svakako ima smisla, kad bi kojim slučajem mravojedi postali inteligentna bića kakva bi bila njihova nauka, i da li bi ih interesovalo kretanje planeta ili nešto sasvim drugo

dakle, i određivanje ''dnevnog reda'', tema, predmeta jedne nauke, je itekako proizvoljno, više poštapalica nego neki racionalno određen model

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #141 on: 08-10-2014, 12:54:06 »
nabasah na ovo slučajno, a došlo k'o poručeno







Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #142 on: 16-10-2014, 10:26:19 »
Idemo dalje, ali sa malo lakšim sadržajem:


Nobel Prize: How English beat German as language of science

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #143 on: 01-11-2014, 10:51:31 »
Koji su najcitiraniji naučni radovi u poslednjih pola veka?
 
Ovi:
 The top 100 papers

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #144 on: 26-12-2014, 08:57:05 »
Staro, al ne zastareva. Baz Oldrin reaguje na čoveka koji ga iritantno optužuje da je sletanje na Mesec bilo prevara:
 
Buzz Aldrin Punch

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #145 on: 26-12-2014, 09:45:19 »
Ako ga je.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #146 on: 26-12-2014, 10:17:20 »
Nasilje ništa ne rešava ali neka nerešenja su bolja od drugih reklo bi se.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #147 on: 26-12-2014, 10:44:52 »
Treba razmisliti gde nasilje počinje. Da li kad neko čije je jedino ispunjenje u životu da posegne protiv nečijeg životnog postignuća ili kad zbog toga dobije po pičci? Uostalom, publicitet je dobio po maloj ceni. A može i da zaradi pokazujući modricu stečenu od Oldrina za neke pare.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #148 on: 26-12-2014, 11:01:49 »
Jasno, u određenom smislu je nasilje i to što se nekom unosiš u lice i nazivaš ga lažovom povišenim tonom itd. Niti je to rešenje za išta niti je Oldrinov kroše rešenje, jer nije njime dokazao da je stvarno bilo spuštanja na mesec, ali skloni smo da mu ipak damo za pravo u ovom slučaju...

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #149 on: 26-12-2014, 13:55:05 »
Nisam srećan kad polemišeš sa bilo čime bez ikakvog stava. Ispada da svako može napasti bilo čiji integritet, pa da se pozoveš na toleranciju. Dođe mi da ja tebe verbalno povredim čisto da vidim kako bi reagovao. Na ovom forumu, u više navrata, bio sam izložen neprimerenim ličnim uvredama, a da nikada nisi reagovao. Misliš da sam sposoban da se sam branim? Misliš da nisam spreman da razvučem "po pičci", pa da braniš udarenu stranu? Hajde, pokaži se na uvredama koje mi se nanose na ovom forumu. Tek toliko da pokažeš da si dosledan. Ili nisi?
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #150 on: 26-12-2014, 14:43:06 »
Nisam, nisam.

Dzouzi

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #151 on: 26-12-2014, 19:04:02 »
Možda će vas neko i braniti kada vi prestanete da vređate druge. To je tako jednostavno.

Siledžiji ne pristaje da glumi žrtvu.

Sa druge strane, ovde niko nikada nije nikoga branio od uvreda. Niste ni vi druge (štaviše, često možemo da vas pronađemo u poziciji potpaljivanja vatre), pa što biste očekivali da neko sada brani vas?

Kao što rekoh, svako žanje ono što je posejao.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #152 on: 26-12-2014, 19:45:25 »
Meho, evo ti pacijenta pa vidi šta ćeš.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #153 on: 26-12-2014, 22:40:09 »
Što meni? Nisam ja zvanični lekar ovog foruma.  :lol: 

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #154 on: 26-12-2014, 22:48:20 »
Ali si zaštitnik svih ugroženih manjina, a mora da priznaš da ti je ova manjina toliko ugrožena koliko i sve ostale zajedno. Pa, baci se na posao.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Josephine

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #155 on: 26-12-2014, 22:58:22 »
Ja sam u manjini. Ali meni ne treba odbrana.

Vas brane Miljan, Steva, Batica, Džon, Boban... Zar vam nije dovoljna njihova odbrana? Ili koristite Mehu za vaše (uobičajene) manipulacije? :)

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #156 on: 26-12-2014, 23:02:26 »
O, pa zakasnila si. Njega manipulišem svakodnevno. Dok si ti sređivala Dubajce i ja sam bio vredan. Jeste Meho tvrd orah, ali i on pusti suzu.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Josephine

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #157 on: 26-12-2014, 23:06:10 »
Pre nego što ga rasplačete ponovo, setite se da se danas, sa svojim prvim postom, uopšte nisam obratila vama. No, vi ste osetili potrebu da mi na nos natrljavate da sam ograničena na dva posta dnevno. I saznali ste to pre mene (kada govorimo o zlostavljanju). A onda zapamtite kako ću reagovati svaki put kada mi se obratite bez razloga, na ružan način, kao danas.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #158 on: 26-12-2014, 23:12:42 »
Stvaaarno! Ustvari, tvoj dugogodišnji mentor mi je juče tvrdio da si ograničena na jedan post dnevno. Lažov sto posto. Kako si uopšte mogla da ga voliš? Sad Meho već suzi pomalo.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Josephine

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #159 on: 26-12-2014, 23:15:40 »
Kako vas je lako, istinom, vratiti u poziciju zlostavljača.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #160 on: 26-12-2014, 23:24:37 »
Pa, ovo je topik Ideologija nauke. Imaš li nešto konstruktivno ili da te ispratim tamo gde pripadaš. Meho nema terapiju za tebe.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Josephine

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #161 on: 26-12-2014, 23:26:38 »
I vi prljate po temi. Niste primetili? Ili mislite da vaše govno ne smrdi?

Zapamtite, ja nisam dobra žrtva.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #162 on: 26-12-2014, 23:29:17 »
Naravno da nisi. Ti si idealna žrtva.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Josephine

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #163 on: 26-12-2014, 23:32:44 »
A vaše govno smrdi najviše.

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #164 on: 26-12-2014, 23:34:27 »
ako si ti žrtva onda je i Luj 16. žrtva, toliko o tome

i jel stvarno imaš potrebu za tolikim štancovanjem istovjetnih i besmislenih postova

mislim, i ja pitam svašta, to repetitivno histerično ponašanje je izgleda i jedino što si pokazala na Sagiti

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #165 on: 26-12-2014, 23:36:22 »
Sad si postala prosta. A ja bio ubeđen da bi ti malo fitnesa koristilo da se razmrdaš. Zarđala si.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Josephine

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #166 on: 26-12-2014, 23:37:31 »
Stvari treba zvati pravim imenom.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #167 on: 26-12-2014, 23:50:49 »
Eh, kad bi bilo tako. Nikada nisi mogla da izdržiš ni pola sata, a da ne prsneš.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #168 on: 27-12-2014, 00:16:06 »
Ali si zaštitnik svih ugroženih manjina, a mora da priznaš da ti je ova manjina toliko ugrožena koliko i sve ostale zajedno. Pa, baci se na posao.

Na poslu sam ja sve vreme. Ko zna na šta bi tek forum ličio da me nema.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #169 on: 27-12-2014, 00:21:11 »
Znam ja muke tvoje. Samo sam želeo da vidiš i moje.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Nightflier

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #170 on: 27-12-2014, 03:14:59 »
Ali si zaštitnik svih ugroženih manjina, a mora da priznaš da ti je ova manjina toliko ugrožena koliko i sve ostale zajedno. Pa, baci se na posao.

Na poslu sam ja sve vreme. Ko zna na šta bi tek forum ličio da me nema.

Me'met efendija Krljić - The Batman of Sagita! (Ta-na-na-na MEHO!)
Sebarsko je da budu gladni.
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Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #171 on: 15-01-2015, 08:47:29 »

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #172 on: 01-02-2015, 16:09:04 »
Evo sad, šta misli javnost a šta kaže nauka (o nekim stvarima) (u Americi, obvijzli):
 Public and Scientists’ Views on Science and Society
 
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Scientific innovations are deeply embedded in national life — in the economy, in core policy choices about how people care for themselves and use the resources around them, and in the topmost reaches of Americans’ imaginations. New Pew Research Center surveys of citizens and a representative sample of scientists connected to the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) show powerful crosscurrents that both recognize the achievements of scientists and expose stark fissures between scientists and citizens on a range of science, engineering and technology issues. This report highlights these major findings:
 Science holds an esteemed place among citizens and professionals. Americans recognize the accomplishments of scientists in key fields and, despite considerable dispute about the role of government in other realms, there is broad public support for government investment in scientific research.
The key data:
  At the same time, both the public and scientists are critical of the quality of science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM subjects) in grades K-12.
The key data:
  Despite broadly similar views about the overall place of science in America, citizens and scientists often see science-related issues through different sets of eyes. There are large differences in their views across a host of issues.
 
The key data:
  Compared with five years ago, both citizens and scientists are less upbeat about the scientific enterprise. Citizens are still broadly positive about the place of U.S. scientific achievements and its impact on society, but slightly more are negative than five years ago. And, while a majority of scientists think it is a good time for science, they are less upbeat than they were five years ago. Most scientists believe that policy regulations on land use and clean air and water are not often guided by the best science.
The key data:
 
These are some of the findings from a new pair of surveys conducted by the Pew Research Center in collaboration with the AAAS. The survey of the general public was conducted by landline and cellular telephone August 15-25, 2014 with a representative sample of 2,002 adults nationwide. The margin of sampling error for results based on all adults is plus or minus 3.1 percentage points. The survey of scientists is based on a representative sample of 3,748 U.S.-based members of AAAS; the survey was conducted online from Sept. 11 to Oct. 13, 2014.2 A Sizable Opinion Gap Exists Between the General Public and Scientists on a Range of Science and Technology Topics
Citizens’ and scientists’ views diverge sharply across a range of science, engineering and technology topics. Opinion differences occur on all 13 issues where a direct comparison is available. A difference of less than 10 percentage points occurs on only two of the 13.
 
The largest differences between the public and the AAAS scientists are found in beliefs about the safety of eating genetically modified (GM) foods. Nearly nine-in-ten (88%) scientists say it is generally safe to eat GM foods compared with 37% of the general public, a difference of 51 percentage points. One possible reason for the gap: when it comes to GM crops, two-thirds of the public (67%) say scientists do not have a clear understanding about the health effects.
 
Chapter 3 looks at public and scientists’ attitudes on each of these issues in more detail along with several topics asked only of the general public, including access to experimental medical treatments, bioengineering and genetic modifications.
 Both the Public and Scientists See U.S. Scientific Achievements in a Positive Light. But They Are Critical of K-12 STEM Education.
 
Despite differences in views about a range of biomedical and physical science topics, both the public and scientists give relatively high marks to the nation’s scientific achievements and give distinctly lower marks to K-12 education in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (known as STEM). Just 16% of AAAS scientists and 29% of adults in the general public considers K-12 STEM education in the U.S. to be the best or above average compared with other industrialized countries. Both groups see U.S. scientific achievements and medical treatment in a more positive light, by comparison.
 
About half of Americans (54%) consider U.S. scientific achievements to be above average or among the best in the world. The only aspect of American society rated more favorably is the U.S. military system (77%). About half (51%) also see U.S. medical treatment as in the top tier compared with other industrialized countries. Public views about K-12 STEM are markedly more negative: 29% say it is the best or above average, while 39% say it is average and another 29% say it is below average. (For more on public assessments of key institutions and industries, including the economy, health care, and the political system see Chapter 2.)
 
Compared with the general public, scientists are even more positive about the place of U.S. scientific achievements. Fully nine-in-ten (92%) AAAS scientists consider scientific achievements in the U.S. to be the best in the world (45%) or above average (47%).
 
Scientists also have largely positive views about the global standing of U.S. medical treatment (64% say it is the best in the world or above average) as well as other aspects of science and technology including doctoral training (87%), cutting edge basic research (87%) and industry research and development innovation (81%).
 Just 16% of scientists say the same about K-12 STEM.
Among scientists, the public’s knowledge about science — or lack thereof — is widely considered to be a major (84%) or minor (14%) problem for the field.
 
And when asked about four possible reasons for the public having limited science knowledge, three-quarters of AAAS scientists in the new survey say too little K-12 STEM education is a major factor.
 Citizens Are Still Broadly Positive About the Achievements of American Science and Its Impact on Society, But Slightly More Are Negative than Five Years Ago. Scientists Are Also Still Largely Positive, But Less Upbeat than Five Years Ago.
A number of the questions asked in these new surveys repeat questions that Pew Research Center asked citizens and scientists in 2009. In key areas, both the public and AAAS scientists are less upbeat today.
 
Among the public, perceptions of the scientific enterprise and its contribution to society, while still largely positive, are a little less rosy than five years ago. Fewer citizens see U.S. scientific contributions as top tier compared with other nations. And, while most adults see positive contributions of science on life overall and on the quality of health care, food and the environment, there is a slight rise in negative views in each area. Similarly, most citizens say government investment in research pays off in the long run, but slightly more are skeptical about the benefits of government spending today than in 2009. While the change is modest on several of these measures, the share expressing negative views on each is slightly larger today than in 2009.3
Scientists’ views have moved in the same direction. Though scientists hold mostly positive assessments of the state of science and their scientific specialty today, they are less sanguine than they were in 2009 when Pew Research conducted a previous survey of AAAS members. The downturn is shared widely among AAAS scientists regardless of discipline and employment sector.
 Perception of U.S. Scientific Achievements
 
Overall, 54% of adults consider U.S. scientific achievements to be either the best in the world (15%) or above average (39%) compared with other industrial countries. Of the seven aspects of American society rated, only one was seen more favorably: the U.S. military. Compared with 2009, however, the share saying that U.S. scientific achievements are the best in the world or above average is down 11 points, from 65% in 2009 to 54% today. More now see U.S. scientific achievements as “average” in the global context (up from 26% in 2009 to 34% today) or “below average” (up slightly from 5% in 2009 to 9% today). Perceptions of some other key sectors, including U.S. health care, also dropped during this timeframe. See Chapter 2 for details.
 
Partisan groups tend to hold similar views of U.S. scientific achievements and, the drop in ratings of U.S. scientific achievements since 2009 has occurred across the political spectrum.
 
When it comes to policy prescriptions, however, a partisan divide emerges. A separate Pew Research Center report released this month finds that Democrats are more likely than Republicans to prioritize “supporting scientific research” for the President and the Congress in the coming year. Younger adults are also more likely than their elders to say supporting scientific research should be a top priority for the President and the new Congress.4 Effects of Science on Society
Overall the American public tends to see the effects of science on society in a positive light. Fully 79% of citizens say that science has made life easier for most people, while just 15% say it has made life more difficult. However, the balance of opinion is slightly less positive today than in 2009 when positive views outpaced negative ones by a margin of 83% to 10%.
 
Similarly, a majority of adults says the effect of science on the quality of U.S. health care, food and the environment is mostly positive as was also the case in 2009. The share saying that science has had a negative effect in each area has increased slightly. For example, 79% of adults say that science has had a positive effect on the quality of health care, down from 85% in 2009 while negative views have ticked up from 10% in 2009 to 18% today.
 
When it comes to food, 62% of Americans say science has had a mostly positive effect, while 34% say science has mostly had a negative effect on the quality of food. The balance of opinion is a bit less rosy on this issue compared with 2009 when positive views outstripped negative ones by a margin of 66% to 24%.
 
Similarly, more say science has had a positive (62%) than negative (31%) effect on the quality of the environment today. But, the balance of opinion on this issue has shifted somewhat compared with 2009 when 66% said science had a positive effect and 23% said it had a negative effect.
 
These modest changes over time have occurred among both Republicans (including independents who lean Republican) as well as Democrats (including independents who lean Democratic). However, Republicans’ views about the effect of science on health care and food have changed more than those of Democrats.
 
Both Republicans and Democrats have shifted by about the same amount in their assessment of science’s effect on the quality of the environment; there are no significant differences by party affiliation when it comes to the overall effect of science on the environment. Two-thirds (66%) of Republicans and independents who lean to the Republican Party say the effect of science on the quality of the environment in the U.S. has been mostly positive, as do 61% of Democrats and independents who lean toward the Democratic Party. (A detailed look at attitudes about science and technology topics by political groups is forthcoming later this year).
 Public Support for Research Funding Since 2009
 
A majority of the public sees societal benefit from government investment in science and engineering research. Roughly seven-in-ten adults say that government investment in engineering and technology (72%) as well as basic science research (71%) pays off in the long run while a minority says such spending is not worth it (22% and 24%, respectively). Positive views about the value of government investment in each area is about the same as in 2009, though negative views that such spending is not worth it have ticked up 5 points for engineering and technology research and 6 points for basic science research.
 
Views about the role of government funding as compared with private investment show steady support for government investment (61% in 2014 and 60% in 2009) but, there is a slight rise in the view that private investment, without government funds, will be enough to ensure scientific progress (from 29% in 2009 to 34% today). The modest difference over time stems from more expressing an opinion today than did so five years ago.
 Mixed Perceptions About the Degree of Scientific Consensus
The general public tends to hold mixed views about the degree to which they believe there is scientific consensus on three hot-button science topics — the “Big Bang” theory, climate change and evolution.
 
Asked whether scientists generally believe that the universe was created in a single violent event often called “the Big Bang,” about four-in-ten (42%) say yes while about half (52%) say scientists are generally divided about this issue.
 
When it comes to climate change and evolution, a majority of adults see scientists as generally in agreement that the earth is getting warmer due to human activity (57%) or that humans have evolved over time (66%), though a sizeable minority see scientists as divided over each. Perceptions of where the scientific community stands on both climate change and evolution tend to be associated with individual views on the issue.
 Scientists Are Still Largely Positive, But Are Less Upbeat About the State of Science Today Than They Were Five Years Ago.
 
Scientists’ overall assessments of the field, while still mostly positive, are less upbeat than they were in 2009 when Pew Research conducted a previous survey of AAAS members.
 
Today, about half of AAAS scientists (52%) say this is good time for science, down 24 percentage points from three-quarters (76%) in 2009.
 
Scientists are more positive, by comparison, when it comes to the state of their scientific specialty. But here, too, scientists are less rosy in their assessments than five years ago: 62% of AAAS scientists say this is a good time for their specialty area, down 11 percentage points from 2009.
 
These more downbeat assessments occur among AAAS scientists across all disciplines, among those with both a basic and applied research focus,5 and across all employer types.
 
Some 59% of AAAS scientists say this is a good or very good time to begin a career in their specialty, down from 67% in 2009. Assessments about the state of their specialty for new entrants is about the same as 2009 for those focused on applied research (71% in 2009 and 69% today say it a good or very good time), but it is down 15 percentage points among those doing basic research, from 63% in 2009 to 48% today saying this is a good or very good time to begin a career in their specialty area.
 
 
There are a number of possible reasons for scientists’ less optimistic assessments over this period including the different economic and political contexts,6 heightened concerns among scientists about the research funding environment, and, perhaps, what scientists see as the limited impact their work is having on policy regulations.
 
Fully 83% of AAAS scientists report that obtaining federal research funding is harder today than it was five years ago. More than four-in-ten say the same about industry funding (45%) and private foundation funding (45%) compared with five years ago. Further, when asked to consider each of seven potential issues as a “serious problem for conducting high quality research today,” fully 88% of AAAS scientists say that a lack of funding for basic research is a serious problem, substantially more than any of the other issues considered.7
 
 
Scientists have, at best, mixed views about the impact of the research enterprise on four areas of government regulations. A majority of AAAS scientists (58%) say that the best scientific information guides government regulations about new drug and medical treatments at least most of the time, while about four-in-ten (41%) say such information guides regulations only some of the time or never. Views about the impact of scientific information on food safety regulations are more mixed with 46% saying the best information guides regulations always or most of the time and a slightly larger share (52%) saying it does so only some of the time or never. Scientists are largely pessimistic that the best information guides regulations when it comes to clean air and water regulations or land use regulations: 72% and 84%, respectively, say this occurs only some of the time or never.
 
Scientists’ views about the impact of research on government regulations in each domain tend to be associated with their views about the state of the overall science environment.
 
For example, those who see a more frequent impact of scientific findings on land use regulations also tend to be more upbeat about the state of science today; 62% say this is generally a good time for science. By comparison, those who say the best science guides land use regulations only some of the time or never are less positive. Half (50%) of this group says it is a good time and an equal share says it is a bad time for science overall. The same pattern holds for each of the four types of regulations considered in the survey. Scientists who perceive a more frequent influence of the best science on regulations are also more likely to say this is a good time for science compared with scientists who see less frequent impact of the best scientific information on policy rules.
 Roadmap to the report
 
The remainder of this report details the findings on both public and scientists’ views about science, engineering and technology topics. Chapter 1 briefly outlines related Pew Research Center studies and reviews some of the key caveats and concerns in conducting research in this area. Chapter 2 looks at overall views about science and society, the image of the U.S. as a global leader, perceived contributions of science to society, and views about government funding for scientific research. Chapter 3 covers attitudes and beliefs about a range of biomedical and physical science topics. It focuses on comparisons between the public and AAAS scientists and also covers public attitudes on access to experimental drugs, bioengineering of artificial organs, genetic modifications and perceptions of scientific consensus. Chapter 4 examines the views of AAAS scientists about the scientific enterprise, issues and concerns facing the scientific community, and issues for those newly entering careers in science. It also includes the experiences and background characteristics of the AAAS scientists in the survey. Appendices provide a detailed report on the methodology used in each survey as well as the full question wording and frequency results for each question in this report.
 About This Report
This report is based on a pair of surveys conducted by the Pew Research Center in collaboration with the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). It looks at the views of the general public and scientists about the place of science in American culture, their views about major science-related issues, and the role of science in public policy.
 
This is the first of several reports analyzing the data from this pair of surveys. This report focuses on a comparison of the views of the general public and those of AAAS scientists as a whole. Follow up reports planned for later this year will analyze views of the general public in more detail, especially by demographic, religious, and political subgroups. And, some results from the survey of AAAS scientists will be presented in a follow-up report in mid-February.
 
The fieldwork for both surveys was conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International. Contact with AAAS members invited to participate in the survey was managed by AAAS staff with the help of Princeton Survey Research Associates International; AAAS also covered part of the costs associated with mailing members. All other costs of conducting the pair of surveys were covered by the Pew Research Center. Pew Research bears all responsibility for the content, design and analysis of both the AAAS member survey and the survey of the general public.
 Acknowledgements
Special thanks to Jeanne Braha and Tiffany Lohwater of AAAS who facilitated the interactions between Pew Research and AAAS staff to conduct the survey of members and to Ian King, director of marketing at AAAS, as well as Elizabeth Sattler and Julianne Wielga, who prepared the random sample of members and sent out all contacts with AAAS members selected for participation. We are also grateful to the team at Princeton Survey Research International who led the data collection efforts for the two surveys.
 
  • Animal research is a common short-hand in survey-based reports to describe views about “the use of animals in scientific research” such as medical research that tests the effectiveness of drugs and procedures on animals. The two terms are used interchangeably in this report.
  • The AAAS survey is a sample of the U.S. based membership of the organization The margin of sampling error for estimates about the full U.S.-based membership of AAAS is plus or minus 1.7 percentage points
  • The General Social Survey (GSS) has tracked public confidence in key institutions since the 1970s. In the most recent survey, completed in 2012, four-in-ten (40%) adults had “a great deal of confidence” in the scientific community, 49% had “only some” confidence and 7% had “hardly any” confidence. The share of adults holding a great deal of confidence in the scientific community has been fairly stable since the 1970’s, though there has been long-term declines in confidence across the set of 12 institutions. See Tom W. Smith and Jaesok Son, May 2013, “Trends in Public Attitudes about Confidence in Institutions.” A multivariate analysis of the same data through 2010 by Gordon Gauchat suggest a long term decline in trust of the scientific community among political conservatives, particularly those with more education. See “Politicization of Science in the Public Sphere: A Study of Public Trust in the United States, 1974 to 2010,” American Sociological Review, 77(2):167-187.
  • Pew Research Center report “Public’s Policy Priorities Reflect Changing Conditions at Home and Abroad,” January 15, 2015. Partisan differences in policy priorities also occur on: dealing with global warming, protecting the environment, and dealing with the nation’s energy problem.
  • AAAS scientists were asked to self-identify whether any scientific research they have been involved in during the past five years primarily addresses basic knowledge questions or applied research questions. The OECD defines basic research as “experimental or theoretical work undertaken primarily to acquire new knowledge of the underlying foundations of phenomena and observable facts, without any particular application or use in view.” The chief difference between basic and applied research is that applied research has a specific practical aim or objective.
  • While the 2009 survey was conducted when the Great Recession was taking hold, there was also a promise of scientific funding through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 around the same time.
  • For data on trends in research funding from government and industry sources see Chapters 4, 5 and 6 in the Science and Engineering Indicators 2014. The Congressional Research Office reviews federal research and development funding


Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #173 on: 17-03-2015, 14:33:57 »
Problem sa mnogo informacija je između ostalog i u tome što se njihova vrednost time snižava. Recimo:

There are too many scientific studies, says scientific study



Quote
Technically Incorrect: Researchers suggest there are so many scientific papers that their contents are being rapidly forgotten.


    Scientists are being overwhelmed by too much science.
 A new scientific study concludes that there are too many scientific studies. Written by researchers in Finland and California, it is entitled "Attention Decay In Science" (pdf).
 The paper outlines some very simple and difficult realities. For example, it notes that scientists simply can't keep track of all the studies in their field. And it concludes that the citation rate of papers is rapidly declining over time.
    "Nowadays papers are forgotten more quickly," says the study. The ultimate result for these researchers is that the "attention of scholars depends on the number of published items, not on real time."
    The problem, the paper says, is remarkably modern and so very Facebook: "Attention, measured by the number and lifetime of citations, is the main currency of the scientific community, and along with other forms of recognition forms the basis for promotions and the reputation of scientists."
    Yes, scientists appear to be publishing more and more. They are identical to we, mere paeans, who are desperately trying to offer interesting Facebook updates to make our alleged friends believe we are interesting people.
 These researchers looked at "all publications (articles and reviews) written in English till the end of 2010 included in the database of the Thomson Reuters (TR) Web of Science.  For each publication we extracted its year of publication, the subject category of the journal in which it is published and the corresponding citations  to  that  publication."
 An interesting word was used in this research to describe the more rapid disappearance of studies: decay. It's as if there is an organic mass of scientific work that rots away as more and more scientific work grows.
    Just as with Facebook, YouTube or any other means of publication, how can you make this organic process stop? If publication has become too easy, there will be more and more of it.


    Scientists crave recognition by publication, because that is the means by which they can advance. Ergo, there will be more papers creating a likely indigestion of information.
    That indigestion will lead to, as paper says, rapid amnesia.
 Place that likelihood into a world in which attention spans are the length of your average Vine and you face a difficult perspective for distinguishing research that might be breakthrough from research that might, say, make for a fine YouTube video.
    Mind you, it was scientists who created our caring, sharing, digital world. Let's see if they can get us beyond it.
    I think this needs more research.
    (Via CBS Sacramento)

Albedo 0

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #174 on: 18-03-2015, 17:06:24 »
funny cause it's true

bilo bi savršeno da je umjesto fejsbuka spomenuo twitter, tu samo ime govori sve

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #175 on: 05-04-2015, 06:46:48 »

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #176 on: 03-07-2015, 09:03:08 »
Evo sad, šta misli javnost a šta kaže nauka (o nekim stvarima) (u Americi, obvijzli):


Pet meseci kasnije imamo novu studiju na istu temu:



Americans, Politics and Science Issues (PDF)


ili, ko prezire PDF, evo seksije, interaktivne varijante:



Major Gaps Between the Public, Scientists on Key Issues

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #177 on: 21-08-2015, 09:24:49 »
Faked peer reviews prompt 64 retractions



Quote
A leading scientific publisher has retracted 64 articles in 10 journals, after an internal investigation discovered fabricated peer-review reports linked to the articles’ publication.
Berlin-based Springer announced the retractions in an 18 August statement. In May, Springer merged with parts of Macmillan Science and Education — which publishes Nature to form the new company Springer Nature.
The cull comes after similar discoveries of ‘fake peer review’ by several other major publishers, including London-based BioMed Central, an arm of Springer, which began retracting 43 articles in March citing "reviews from fabricated reviewers". The practice can occur when researchers submitting a paper for publication suggest reviewers, but supply contact details for them that actually route requests for review back to the researchers themselves.


The Springer investigation began in November 2014 after a journal editor-in-chief noticed irregularities in contact details for peer reviewers. These included e-mail addresses that the editor they suspected were bogus but were accompanied by the names of real researchers, says William Curtis, executive vice-president for publishing, medicine and biomedicine at Springer. The investigation, which focused on articles for which authors had suggested their own reviewers, detected numerous fabricated peer-review reports. Affected authors and their institutions have been told about the investigation’s findings, says Curtis.
   Future vetting                                                            Springer declined to name the articles or journals involved. However, a search of the publisher’s website identified more than 40 retraction notices dated between 17 and 19 August 2015 for articles in 8 Springer journals.
Springer now plans to vet peer-reviewer suggestions more carefully, Curtis says. Its journals may in future request the supply of institutional e-mail addresses or Scopus author IDs for reviewers.
When BioMed Central uncovered its peer-review problem, senior editor for research integrity Elizabeth Moylan noted that some of the issues seemed to involve companies that charge scientists to edit their manuscripts and help them with journal submission. Curtis says that Springer has “limited evidence” to implicate such third parties in some of the cases it uncovered.
   Double-checks                                                            Some publishers, such as BioMed Central and San Francisco-based PLoS, have ended the practice of author-suggested reviewers in response to fake peer review. But Elizabeth Wager, a publication consultant and former chair of the Committee on Publication Ethics (COPE), says that “less drastic” measures, such as double-checking non-institutional e-mail addresses given for reviewers, would allow journals to hold on to the expertise that these reviewers often provide.
“The particular problem of fake review comes about when authors are allowed to suggest possible peer reviewers,” says Wager. “The system sounds good. The trouble is when people game the system and use it as a loophole.”
The involvement of third-party companies in bogus peer review is “more worrying”, Wager adds, because it could mean that the practice is more systemic and extends beyond a handful of rogue authors.
Virginia Barbour, the current chair of COPE, says that Springer has informed the committee about the investigation. “It is important publishers take rapid but careful action, as here,” she says.
 Naturedoi:10.1038/nature.2015.18202

Father Jape

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #178 on: 21-08-2015, 09:33:14 »
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=20795

Pogledati obavezno i komentare, koji se uglavnom tiču Cracked listiclea, poput:


Quote
I have to admit that my main reaction to the Cracked article was "the stupid… it burns." It's a mishmash of genuine problems, the Recency Illusion, confusion, and dunderheaded wrongness.
More precisely:

 "Negative Results Are Ignored": this is a problem, but is it a new one? What's arguably new is the concern with trying to address something that's probably been around for a long, long time.

"Scientists Don't Have to Show Their Work": same thing, except that this is an area where science has been getting better and better in recent years. The sharing and availability of raw data is in fact far better than it's ever been in the past — it's just not as good as many of us think it ought to be or could be.

"No One Can Share Their Work": … that's pretty much just backwards. Preprint archives, hosting on personal websites, and open access publishing mean that it's never been easier to access scientific papers. (Yes, Elsevier is acting in a horrible manner and needs to be smacked down — but twenty years ago, you basically couldn't read any scientific papers without physically traveling to a university library.)

And I'm a bit skeptical about sham journals "destroying" science, since most scientists already know which journals in their sub-fields are legitimate.
Blijedi čovjek na tragu pervertita.
To je ta nezadrživa napaljenost mladosti.
Dušman u odsustvu Dušmana.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #179 on: 30-08-2015, 07:59:37 »
Kao da je onima iz prirodnjačkih i tehničkih nauka bio potreban dodatni razlog da ismevaju društvenjake  :cry: :cry: :cry:  Studija pokazuje da oko 50% rezultata iz psiholoških istraživanja ne mogu da se repliciraju.
 
  Study reveals that a lot of psychology research really is just 'psycho-babble'
 
Quote
  Psychology has long been the butt of jokes about its deep insight into the human mind – especially from the “hard” sciences such as physics – and now a study has revealed that much of its published research really is psycho-babble.
     More than half of the findings from 100 different studies published in leading, peer-reviewed psychology journals cannot be reproduced by other researchers who followed the same methodological protocol.
A study by more than 270 researchers from around the world has found that just 39 per cent of the claims made in psychology papers published in three prominent journals could be reproduced unambiguously – and even then they were found to be less significant statistically than the original findings.
The non-reproducible research includes studies into what factors influence men's and women's choice of romantic partners, whether peoples’ ability to identify an object is slowed down if it is wrongly labelled, and whether people show any racial bias when asked to identify different kinds of weapons.
The researchers who carried out the work, published in the journal Science, said that reproducibility is the essence of the scientific method and more must be done to ensure that what is published can be replicated by other researchers.
“Scientific evidence does not rely on trusting the authority of the person who made the discovery. Rather, credibility accumulates through independent replication and elaboration of the ideas and evidence,” said Angela Attwood, professor of psychology at Bristol University, who was part of the reproducibility project.
There is growing concern about the reproducibility of scientific findings, especially in the medical journals where there is great emphasis on “evidence-based” medicine. The levels of statistical significance needed in some fields of research, such as particle physics, are much higher for instance than those employed in “softer” fields such as psychology and medicine.
“For years there has been concern about the reproducibility of scientific findings, but little direct, systematic evidence. This project is the first of its kind and adds substantial evidence that the concerns are real and addressable,” said Brian Nosek, professor of psychology at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, who led the study.
The researchers who tried to reproduce the findings in the 100 published studies said there were three possible reasons for their failure to replicate the results. The first is that there may be slight differences in materials or methods that were not obvious in the published methodology.
The second is that the replication failed by chance alone, and finally that the original results might have been a “false positive”, possibly as a result of researchers enthusiastically pursuing one line of inquiry and ignoring anything that may be inconsistent with it – rather than outright fraud.
Professor Nosek said that there is often a contradiction between the incentives and motives of researchers – whether in psychology or other fields of science – and the need to ensure that their research findings can be reproduced by other scientists.
“Scientists aim to contribute reliable knowledge, but also need to produce results that help them keep their job as a researcher. To thrive in science, researchers need to earn publications, and some kind of results are easier to publish than others, particularly ones that are novel and show unexpected or exciting new directions,” he said.
However, the researchers found that some of the attempted replications even produced the opposite effect to the one originally reported. Many psychological associations and journals are not trying to improve reproducibility and openness, the researchers said.
“This very well done study shows that psychology has nothing to be proud of when it comes to replication,” Charles Gallistel, president of the Association for Psychological Science, told Science.

 
 
Srećom, barem su tehničke nauke oslobođene ove stignme, tu se bre zna kako se radi i kako se izveštava, pa je tu procenat ponovljivosti rezultata mnogo ubedljivijih...
 
...
 
...čekajte...
 
deset odsto?   :-? :-? :-?
 Studies show only 10% of published science articles are reproducible. What is happening?
 
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Studies show a very low reproducibility for articles published in scientific journals, often as low as 10-30%. Here is a partial list:[/size][/color]
 
  • [/size]The biotech company Amgen had a team of about 100 scientists trying to reproduce the findings of 53 “landmark” articles in cancer research published by reputable labs in top journals.
     
    Only 6 of the 53 studies were reproduced[/url] (about 10%).
     [/size]
    [/color]
  • [/size]Scientists at the pharmaceutical company, Bayer, examined 67 target-validation projects in oncology, women’s health, and cardiovascular medicine.  Published results were reproduced in only
     
    14 out of 67 projects[/url] (about 21%).
     [/size]
    [/color]
  • [/size]The project, PsychFileDrawer, dedicated to replication of published articles in experimental psychology, shows a
     
    replication rate 3 out of 9[/url] (33%) so far.[/size]
    [/color]

[/size]My hair is standing on end as I read these numbers! Unbelievable! The reproducibility of published experiments is the foundation of science. No reproducibility – no science. If these numbers are true, or even half-true, it means there is something fundamentally wrong in today’s system of scientific research and education.[/color]
 
[/size]On a practical level, the US government gives nearly
 $31 billion every year in science funding through NIH
only, which is mainly distributed in research grants to academic scientists. The 10% reproducibility rate means that 90% of this money ($28 billion) is wasted. That’s a lot. How are the tax-payers supposed to respond to the scientist plight for more research funding given these numbers? Would you give more of your own money to someone who delivered you such a result?

 
[/size]Beyond the practicalities, there is an interesting philosophical question. Since the middle of the 20-th century, life science research concepts and technologies have rapidly grown from the discovery of DNA to sequencing of genomes. Amazing technologies like microarrays, mass spectrometry, high-throughput assays, imaging, and robotic surgeries were introduced, making biology a data-rich science. One would expect that all these new tools would make science more rigorous and precise, but something opposite is happening.

Jasno je da moramo malo pažljiviji da budemo kad je u pitanju verovanje tim... naučnicima.
 

Albedo 0

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #180 on: 30-08-2015, 14:28:32 »
prirodnjački prevaranti! 8-)

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #181 on: 14-09-2015, 09:51:51 »
Ovde se dosta radilo na tome da Dobrica Ćosić dobije Nobelovu nagradu za... već nešto, ali u stvari sada vidimo da bi Skalop tu bio značajno prirodniji izbor:


The Correlation Between Arts and Crafts and a Nobel Prize





mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #182 on: 12-10-2015, 18:46:05 »
Imamo krizu u nauci, gde naučnici vide obrasce tamo gde ih nema, jer koriste automatizovane sisteme za uočavanje obrazaca. Ima ih koji kažu da moramo da unapređujemo sistem, ali da to nije ništa neobično, niti se sada dešava po prvi put.

http://www.nature.com/news/how-scientists-fool-themselves-and-how-they-can-stop-1.18517

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #183 on: 12-10-2015, 19:40:33 »
Ovde se dosta radilo na tome da Dobrica Ćosić dobije Nobelovu nagradu za... već nešto, ali u stvari sada vidimo da bi Skalop tu bio značajno prirodniji izbor




Meho, ostavi se šale. SF i Art & Craft su povezani po difoltu i tu nema neobičnosti. Bolje pomeni Pavla Zelića. Eno ga, govori na TV u ime Agencije za lekova, a značajne rezultate ima i u literaturi i u stripu. Mnogo je mlađi.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #184 on: 12-10-2015, 20:02:25 »
Pa, ta nagrada se obično dodeljuje manje mlađima... Ali izvinjavam se ako je moj humor nekog povredio.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #185 on: 12-10-2015, 20:14:15 »
Onda uzmi dr Jakšića. On je manje mlad. Nije mi potaman.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #186 on: 27-10-2015, 10:26:15 »
Interesantan (i inherentno štetan & pogrešan, dodao bih) članak na Wall Street Journalu gde autor argumentuje da ulaganje država u nauku nije isplativo jer veliki tehnološki prodori dolaze isključivo kroz privatne inicijative a ne kroz "basic science". Naravno, ironija je što članak čitamo na internetu, jednom od bitnijih tehnoloških prodora što oblikuju socijalne, ekonomske i političke zbiljnosti modernog doba, a koji je nastao kao državni projekat. Opet, članak ima interesantne teze o tome da tehnologija ima svojevrsnu sopstvenu volju i da "sama" traži izumitelje što je u najmanju ruku simpatična slika.

Irena Adler

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #187 on: 27-10-2015, 10:54:37 »
Ne piše da traži investitore (investors) nego pronalazače (inventors). A tu Kelijevu knjigu ću na kraju stvarno morati da pročitam. :(
Inače osnovne teze jesu pogrešne, ili bar jednostrane.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #188 on: 27-10-2015, 11:03:36 »
 :cry: :cry: :cry: Slepac. Hvala na ukazanju. Ispravljeno. I dalje je simpatična slika, to da tehnologija ima neku svoju volju ili makar instinkt.

Irena Adler

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #189 on: 27-10-2015, 11:06:02 »
Simpatična i opasna.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #190 on: 27-10-2015, 11:18:01 »
Mene to podseća na koncept koji je Gibson imao u New Rose Hotel, gde jedan od likova opisuje korporacije kao oblike života koje bi potencijalna vanzemaljska inteligencija prve (možda i jedine) prepoznala kao dominantan oblik života na Zemlji - konzumiranje resursa, rast, proizvodnja otpada, razmnožavanje, deoba, ratovanje...  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ukronija

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #191 on: 27-10-2015, 13:13:23 »
:cry: :cry: :cry: Slepac. Hvala na ukazanju. Ispravljeno. I dalje je simpatična slika, to da tehnologija ima neku svoju volju ili makar instinkt.

Nije li Tesla govorio da ideje dobija iz nekog kosmičkog izvora, ili tako nečega, a on je samo (s)provodnik tih ideja?

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #192 on: 22-11-2015, 07:33:45 »
The Information Theory of Life
 
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here are few bigger — or harder — questions to tackle in science than the question of how life arose. We weren’t around when it happened, of course, and apart from the fact that life exists, there’s no evidence to suggest that life can come from anything besides prior life. Which presents a quandary.
 
Christoph Adami does not know how life got started, but he knows a lot of other things. His main expertise is in information theory, a branch of applied mathematics developed in the 1940s for understanding information transmissions over a wire. Since then, the field has found wide application, and few researchers have done more in that regard than Adami, who is a professor of physics and astronomy and also microbiology and molecular genetics at Michigan State University. He takes the analytical perspective provided by information theory and transplants it into a great range of disciplines, including microbiology, genetics, physics, astronomy and neuroscience. Lately, he’s been using it to pry open a statistical window onto the circumstances that might have existed at the moment life first clicked into place.
 
To do this, he begins with a mental leap: Life, he argues, should not be thought of as a chemical event. Instead, it should be thought of as information. The shift in perspective provides a tidy way in which to begin tackling a messy question. In the following interview, Adami defines information as “the ability to make predictions with a likelihood better than chance,” and he says we should think of the human genome — or the genome of any organism — as a repository of information about the world gathered in small bits over time through the process of evolution. The repository includes information on everything we could possibly need to know, such as how to convert sugar into energy, how to evade a predator on the savannah, and, most critically for evolution, how to reproduce or self-replicate.
 
This reconceptualization doesn’t by itself resolve the issue of how life got started, but it does provide a framework in which we can start to calculate the odds of life developing in the first place. Adami explains that a precondition for information is the existence of an alphabet, a set of pieces that, when assembled in the right order, expresses something meaningful. No one knows what that alphabet was at the time that inanimate molecules coupled up to produce the first bits of information. Using information theory, though, Adami tries to help chemists think about the distribution of molecules that would have had to be present at the beginning in order to make it even statistically plausible for life to arise by chance.
 
Quanta Magazine spoke with Adami about what information theory has to say about the origins of life. An edited and condensed version of the interview follows.
 
QUANTA MAGAZINE: How does the concept of information help us understand how life works?
 
CHRISTOPH ADAMI: Information is the currency of life. One definition of information is the ability to make predictions with a likelihood better than chance. That’s what any living organism needs to be able to do, because if you can do that, you’re surviving at a higher rate. [Lower organisms] make predictions that there’s carbon, water and sugar. Higher organisms make predictions about, for example, whether an organism is after you and you want to escape. Our DNA is an encyclopedia about the world we live in and how to survive in it.
 
Think of evolution as a process where information is flowing from the environment into the genome. The genome learns more about the environment, and with this information, the genome can make predictions about the state of the environment.
 
If the genome is a reflection of the world, doesn’t that make the information context specific?
 
Information in a sequence needs to be interpreted in its environment. Your DNA means nothing on Mars or underwater because underwater is not where you live. A sequence is information in context. A virus’s sequence in its context — its host — has enough information to replicate because it can take advantage of its environment.
 
What happens when the environment changes?
 
The first thing that happens is that stuff that was information about the environment isn’t information anymore. Cataclysmic change means the amount of information you have about the environment may have dropped. And because information is the currency of life, suddenly you’re not so fit anymore. That’s what happened with dinosaurs.
 
Once you start thinking about life as information, how does it change the way you think about the conditions under which life might have arisen?
 
Life is information stored in a symbolic language. It’s self-referential, which is necessary because any piece of information is rare, and the only way you make it stop being rare is by copying the sequence with instructions given within the sequence. The secret of all life is that through the copying process, we take something that is extraordinarily rare and make it extraordinarily abundant.
But where did that first bit of self-referential information come from?
 
We of course know that all life on Earth has enormous amounts of information that comes from evolution, which allows information to grow slowly. Before evolution, you couldn’t have this process. As a consequence, the first piece of information has to have arisen by chance.
 
A lot of your work has been in figuring out just that probability, that life would have arisen by chance.
 
On the one hand, the problem is easy; on the other, it’s difficult. We don’t know what that symbolic language was at the origins of life. It could have been RNA or any other set of molecules. But it has to have been an alphabet. The easy part is asking simply what the likelihood of life is, given absolutely no knowledge of the distribution of the letters of the alphabet. In other words, each letter of the alphabet is at your disposal with equal frequency.
 
The equivalent of that is, let’s say, that instead of looking for a self-replicating [form of life], we’re looking for an English word. Take the word “origins.” If I type letters randomly, how likely is it that I’m going to type “origins”? It is one in 10 billion.
 
Even simple words are very rare. Then you can do a calculation: How likely would it be to get 100 bits of information by chance? It quickly becomes so unlikely that in a finite universe, the probability is effectively zero.
 
But there’s no reason to assume that each letter of the alphabet was present in equal proportion when life started. Could the deck have been stacked?
 
The letters of the alphabet, the monomers of hypothetical primordial chemistry, don’t occur with equal frequency. The rate at which they occur depends tremendously on local conditions like temperature, pressure and acidity levels.
How does this affect the chance that life would arise?
 
What if the probability distribution of letters is biased, so some letters are more likely than others? We can do this for the English language. Let’s imagine that the letter distribution is that of the English language, with e more common than t, which is more common than i. If you do this, it turns out the likelihood of the emergence of “origins” increases by an order of magnitude. Just by having a frequency distribution that’s closer to what you might want, it doesn’t just buy you a little bit, it buys you an exponentially amplifying factor.
 
What does this mean for the origin of life? If you make a naive mathematical calculation of the likelihood of spontaneous emergence, the answer is that it cannot happen on Earth or on any planet anywhere in the universe. But it turns out you’re disregarding a process that adjusts the likelihood.
 
There’s an enormous diversity of environmental niches on Earth. We have all kinds of different places — maybe millions or billions of different places — with different probability distributions. We only need one that by chance approximates the correct composition. By having this huge variety of different environments, we might get information for free.
 
But we don’t know the conditions at the time the first piece of information appeared by chance.
 
There are an extraordinary number of unknowns. The biggest one is that we don’t know what the original set of chemicals was. I have heard tremendous amounts of interesting stuff about what happens in volcanic vents [under the ocean]. It seems that this kind of environment is set up to get information for free. It’s always a question in the origins of life, what came first, metabolism or replication. In this case it seems you’re getting metabolism for free. Replication needs energy; you can’t do it without energy. Where does energy come from if you don’t have metabolism? It turns out that at these vents, you get metabolism for free.
 
If you have achieved that, the only thing you need is a way of moving away from this source of metabolism to establish genes that make metabolism work.
 
Your take on the origins of life is very different from more familiar approaches, like thinking about the chemistry of amino acids. Are there ways in which your approach complements those?
 
If you just look at chemicals, you don’t know how much information is in there. You have to have processes that give you information for free, and without those, the mathematics just isn’t going to work out. Creating certain types of molecules makes you more likely to create others and biases the probability distribution in a way that makes life less rare. The amount of information you need for free is essentially zero.
 
Chemists say, “I still don’t understand what you’re saying,” because they don’t understand information theory, but they’re listening. This is perhaps the first time the rigorous application of information theory is raining upon these chemists, but they’re willing to learn. I’ve asked chemists, “Do you believe that the basis of life is information?” And most of them answered, “You’ve convinced me it’s information.”
Your models investigate how life could emerge by chance. Do you find that people are philosophically opposed to that possibility?
 
I’ve been under attack from creationists from the moment I created life when designing [the artificial life simulator] Avida. I was on their primary target list right away. I’m used to these kinds of fights. They’ve made kind of timid attacks because they weren’t really understanding what I’m saying, which is normal because I don’t think they’ve ever understood the concept of information.
 
You have footholds in lots of fields, like biology, physics, astronomy and neuroscience. In a blog post last year you approvingly quoted Erwin Schrödinger, who wrote, “Some of us should venture to embark on a synthesis of facts and theories, albeit with second-hand and incomplete knowledge of some of them.” Do you see yourself and your work that way?
 
Yes. I’m trained as a theoretical physicist, but the more you learn about different fields, the more you realize these fields aren’t separated by the boundaries people have put upon them, but in fact share enormous commonalities. As a consequence, I have learned to discover a possible application in a remote field and start jumping in there and trying to make progress. It’s a method that’s not without its detractors. Every time I jump into a field, I have a new set of reviewers and they say, “Who the hell is he?” I do believe I’m able to see further than others because I have looked at so many different fields of science.
 
Schrödinger goes on to say that scientists undertake this kind of synthesis work “at the risk of making fools of ourselves.” Do you worry about that?
 
I am acutely aware of that, which is why when I do jump into another field I’m trying to read as much as I can about it because I have a bias not to make a fool of myself. If I jump into a field, I need to have full control of the literature and must therefore be able to act as if I’ve been in the field for 20 years, which makes it difficult. So you have to work twice as hard. People say, “Why do you do it?” If I see a problem where I think I can make a contribution, I have a hard time saying I’m letting other people do it.
 

дејан

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #193 on: 09-12-2015, 13:39:31 »
веома занимљив чланак (инспирсан књигом 'Spooky Action at a Distance' џорџа маслера који је један од уредника 'сајентифик американа') између осталог и о особинама људи и заједнице које, на жалост, чешће него што би смело спутавају напредак...

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What makes science science? The pious answers are: its ceaseless curiosity in the face of mystery, its keen edge of experimental objectivity, its endless accumulation of new data, and the cool machines it uses. We stare, the scientists see; we gawk, they gaze. We guess; they know.

But there are revisionist scholars who question the role of scientists as magi. Think how much we take on faith, even with those wonders of science that seem open to the non-specialist's eye. The proliferation of hominids'--all those near-men and proto-men and half-apes found in the fossil record, exactly as Darwin predicted'--rests on the interpretation of a few blackened Serengeti mandibles that it would take a lifetime's training to really evaluate. (And those who have put in the time end up squabbling anyway.)

Worse, small hints of what seems like scamming reach even us believers. Every few weeks or so, in the Science Times, we find out that some basic question of the universe has now been answered'--but why, we wonder, weren't we told about the puzzle until after it was solved? Results announced as certain turn out to be hard to replicate. Triumphs look retrospectively engineered. This has led revisionist historians and philosophers to suggest that science is a kind of scam'--a socially agreed-on fiction no more empirically grounded than any other socially agreed-on fiction, a faith like any other (as the defenders of faiths like any other like to say). Back when, people looked at old teeth and broken bones with the eye of faith and called them relics; we look at them with the eye of another faith and call them proof. What's different?

The defense of science against this claim turns out to be complicated, for the simple reason that, as a social activity, science is vulnerable to all the comedy inherent in any social activity: group thinking, self-pleasing, and running down the competition in order to get the customer's (or, in this case, the government's) cash. Books about the history of science should therefore be about both science and scientists, about the things they found and the way they found them. A good science writer has to show us the fallible men and women who made the theory, and then show us why, after the human foibles are boiled off, the theory remains reliable.

No well-tested scientific concept is more astonishing than the one that gives its name to a new book by the Scientific American contributing editor George Musser, ''Spooky Action at a Distance'' (Scientific American/Farrar, Straus & Giroux). The ostensible subject is the mechanics of quantum entanglement; the actual subject is the entanglement of its observers. Musser presents the hard-to-grasp physics of ''non-locality,'' and his question isn't so much how this weird thing can be true as why, given that this weird thing had been known about for so long, so many scientists were so reluctant to confront it. What keeps a scientific truth from spreading?

The story dates to the early decades of quantum theory, in the nineteen-twenties and thirties, when Albert Einstein was holding out against the ''probabilistic'' views about the identity of particles and waves held by a younger generation of theoretical physicists. He created what he thought of as a reductio ad absurdum. Suppose, he said, that particles like photons and electrons really do act like waves, as the new interpretations insisted, and that, as they also insisted, their properties can be determined only as they are being measured. Then, he pointed out, something else would have to be true: particles that were part of a single wave function would be permanently ''entangled,'' no matter how far from each other they migrated. If you have a box full of photons governed by one wave function, and one escapes, the escapee remains entangled in the fate of the particles it left behind'--like the outer edges of the ripples spreading from a pebble thrown into a pond. An entangled particle, measured here in the Milky Way, would have to show the same spin'--or the opposite spin, depending'--or momentum as its partner, conjoined millions of light-years away, when measured at the same time. Like Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel, no matter how far they spread apart they would still be helplessly conjoined. Einstein's point was that such a phenomenon could only mean that the particles were somehow communicating with each other instantaneously, at a speed faster than light, violating the laws of nature. This was what he condemned as ''spooky action at a distance.''

John Donne, thou shouldst be living at this hour! One can only imagine what the science-loving Metaphysical poet would have made of a metaphor that had two lovers spinning in unison no matter how far apart they were. But Musser has a nice, if less exalted, analogy for the event: it is as if two magic coins, flipped at different corners of the cosmos, always came up heads or tails together. (The spooky action takes place only in the context of simultaneous measurement. The particles share states, but they don't send signals.)

What started out as a reductio ad absurdum became proof that the cosmos is in certain ways absurd. What began as a bug became a feature and is now a fact. Musser takes us into the lab of the Colgate professor Enrique Galvez, who has constructed a simple apparatus that allows him to entangle photons and then show that ''the photons are behaving like a pair of magic coins. . . .They are not in contact, and no known force links them, yet they act as one.'' With near-quantum serendipity, the publication of Musser's book has coincided with news of another breakthrough experiment, in which scientists at Delft University measured two hundred and forty-five pairs of entangled electrons and confirmed the phenomenon with greater rigor than before. The certainty that spooky action at a distance takes place, Musser says, challenges the very notion of ''locality,'' our intuitive sense that some stuff happens only here, and some stuff over there. What's happening isn't really spooky action at a distance; it's spooky distance, revealed through an action.

Why, then, did Einstein's question get excluded for so long from reputable theoretical physics? The reasons, unfolding through generations of physicists, have several notable social aspects, worthy of Trollope's studies of how private feuds affect public decisions. Musser tells us that fashion, temperament, zeitgeist, and sheer tenacity affected the debate, along with evidence and argument. The ''indeterminacy'' of the atom was, for younger European physicists, ''a lesson of modernity, an antidote to a misplaced Enlightenment trust in reason, which German intellectuals in the 1920's widely held responsible for their country's defeat in the First World War.'' The tonal and temperamental difference between the scientists was as great as the evidence they called on.

Musser tracks the action at the ''Solvay'' meetings, scientific conferences held at an institute in Brussels in the twenties. (Ernest Solvay was a rich Belgian chemist with a taste for high science.) Einstein and Niels Bohr met and argued over breakfast and dinner there, talking past each other more than to each other. Musser writes, ''Bohr punted on Einstein's central concern about links between distant locations in space,'' preferring to focus on the disputes about probability and randomness in nature. As Musser says, the ''indeterminacy'' questions of whether what you measured was actually indefinite or just unknowable until you measured it was an important point, but not this important point.

Musser explains that the big issue was settled mainly by being pushed aside. Generational imperatives trumped evidentiary ones. The things that made Einstein the lovable genius of popular imagination were also the things that made him an easy object of condescension. The hot younger theorists patronized him, one of Bohr's colleagues sneering that if a student had raised Einstein's objections ''I would have considered him quite intelligent and promising.''

There was never a decisive debate, never a hallowed crucial experiment, never even a winning argument to settle the case, with one physicist admitting, ''Most physicists (including me) accept that Bohr won the debate, although like most physicists I am hard pressed to put into words just how it was done.'' Arguing about non-locality went out of fashion, in this account, almost the way ''Rock Around the Clock'' displaced Sinatra from the top of the charts.

The same pattern of avoidance and talking-past and taking on the temper of the times turns up in the contemporary science that has returned to the possibility of non-locality. Musser notes that Geoffrey Chew's attack on the notion of underlying laws in physics ''was radical, and radicalism went over well in '60's-era Berkeley.'' The British mathematician Roger Penrose's assaults on string theory in the nineties were intriguing but too intemperate and too inconclusive for the room: ''Penrose didn't help his cause with his outspoken skepticism. . . . Valid though his critiques might have been, they weren't calculated to endear him to his colleagues.''

Indeed, Musser, though committed to empirical explanation, suggests that the revival of ''non-locality'' as a topic in physics may be due to our finding the metaphor of non-locality ever more palatable: ''Modern communications technology may not technically be non-local but it sure feels that it is.'' Living among distant connections, where what happens in Bangalore happens in Boston, we are more receptive to the idea of such a strange order in the universe. Musser sums it up in an enviable aphorism: ''If poetry is emotion recollected in tranquility, then science is tranquility recollected in emotion.'' The seemingly neutral order of the natural world becomes the sounding board for every passionate feeling the physicist possesses.

Is science, then, a club like any other, with fetishes and fashions, with schemers, dreamers, and blackballed applicants? Is there a real demarcation to be made between science and every other kind of social activity? One of Musser's themes is that the boundary between inexplicable-seeming magical actions and explicable physical phenomena is a fuzzy one. The lunar theory of tides is an instance. Galileo's objection to it was like Einstein's to the quantum theory: that the moon working an occult influence on the oceans was obviously magical nonsense. This objection became Newton's point: occult influences could be understood soberly and would explain the movement of the stars and planets. What was magic became mathematical and then mundane. ''Magical'' explanations, like spooky action, are constantly being revived and rebuffed, until, at last, they are reinterpreted and accepted. Instead of a neat line between science and magic, then, we see a jumpy, shifting boundary that keeps getting redrawn. It's like the ''Looney Tunes'' cartoon where Bugs draws a line in the dirt and dares Yosemite Sam to ''just cross over dis line'''--and then, when Sam does, Bugs redraws it, over and over, ever backward, until, in the end, Sam steps over a cliff. Real-world demarcations between science and magic, Musser's story suggests, are like Bugs's: made on the move and as much a trap as a teaching aid.

In the past several decades, certainly, the old lines between the history of astrology and astronomy, and between alchemy and chemistry, have been blurred; historians of the scientific revolution no longer insist on a clean break between science and earlier forms of magic. Where once logical criteria between science and non-science (or pseudo-science) were sought and taken seriously'--Karl Popper's criterion of ''falsifiability'' was perhaps the most famous, insisting that a sound theory could, in principle, be proved wrong by one test or another'--many historians and philosophers of science have come to think that this is a na¯ve view of how the scientific enterprise actually works. They see a muddle of coercion, old magical ideas, occasional experiment, hushed-up failures'--all coming together in a social practice that gets results but rarely follows a definable logic.
Yet the old notion of a scientific revolution that was really a revolution is regaining some credibility. David Wootton, in his new, encyclopedic history, ''The Invention of Science'' (Harper), recognizes the blurred lines between magic and science but insists that the revolution lay in the public nature of the new approach. ''What killed alchemy was not experimentation,'' he writes. He goes on: What killed alchemy was the insistence that experiments must be openly reported in publications which presented a clear account of what had happened, and they must then be replicated, preferably before independent witnesses. The alchemists had pursued a secret learning, convinced that only a few were fit to have knowledge of divine secrets and that the social order would collapse if gold ceased to be in short supply. . . . Esoteric knowledge was replaced by a new form of knowledge, which depended both on publication and on public or semi-public performance. A closed society was replaced by an open one.

In a piquant way, Wootton, while making little of Popper's criterion of falsifiability, makes it up to him by borrowing a criterion from his political philosophy. Scientific societies are open societies. One day the lunar tides are occult, the next day they are science, and what changes is the way in which we choose to talk about them.

Wootton also insists, against the grain of contemporary academia, that single observed facts, what he calls ''killer facts,'' really did polish off antique authorities. Facts are not themselves obvious: the fact of the fact had to be invented, litigated, and re-litigated. But, once we agree that the facts are facts, they can do amazing work. Traditional Ptolemaic astronomy, in place for more than a millennium, was destroyed by what Galileo discovered about the phases of Venus. That killer fact ''serves as a single, solid, and strong argument to establish its revolution around the Sun, such that no room whatsoever remains for doubt,'' Galileo wrote, and Wootton adds, ''No one was so foolish as to dispute these claims.'' Observation was theory-soaked'--Wootton shows a delightful drawing of a crater on the moon that does not actually exist, drawn by a dutiful English astronomer who had just been reading Galileo'--and facts were, as always, tempered by our desires. But there they were, all the same, smiling fiendishly, like cartoon barracudas, as they ate up old orbits.

Several things flow from Wootton's view. One is that ''group think'' in the sciences is often true think. Science has always been made in a cloud of social networks. But this power of assent is valuable only if there's a willingness to look a killer fact in the eye. The Harvard theoretical physicist Lisa Randall's new book, ''Dark Matter and the Dinosaurs'' (Ecco), has as its arresting central thesis the idea that a disk of dark matter might exist in the Milky Way, perturbing the orbits of comets and potentially sending them periodically toward Earth, where they are likely to produce large craters and extinctions. But the theory is plausible only because a single killer fact murdered an earlier theory'--which held that an unseen star was out there, doing the perturbing and the extincting. Every newer orbiting telescope has scanned the skies, and the so-called Nemesis star hasn't shown up. Disks of dark matter can now appear in the space left empty by the star's absence.

A similar pattern is apparent in the case of the search for ''Vulcan,'' the hypothesized planet that, in the nineteenth century, sat between Mercury and the sun and explained perturbations in Mercury's orbit. As Thomas Levenson explains in ''The Hunt for Vulcan'' (Random House), nineteenth-century astronomers were so in love with the idea of the missing planet that many of them, bewitched by random shadows, insisted they had seen it through their telescopes. Only in 1915, when Einstein emerged with a new interpretation of the perturbations (something to do with gravity as space-time curvature), could astronomers stop ''seeing'' what wasn't there.

There has been much talk in the pop-sci world of ''memes'''--ideas that somehow manage to replicate themselves in our heads. But perhaps the real memes are not ideas or tunes or artifacts but ways of making them'--habits of mind rather than products of mind. Science isn't a slot machine, where you drop in facts and get out truths. But it is a special kind of social activity, one where lots of different human traits'--obstinacy, curiosity, resentment of authority, sheer cussedness, and a grudging readiness to submit pet notions to popular scrutiny'--end by producing reliable knowledge. The spread of Bill James's ideas on baseball, from mimeographed sheets to the front offices of the Red Sox, is a nice instance of how a scientific turn of mind spread to a place where science hadn't usually gone. (James himself knew it, remarking that if he was going to be Galileo someone had to be the Pope.)

One way or another, science really happens. The claim that basic research is valuable because it leads to applied technology may be true but perhaps is not at the heart of the social use of the enterprise. The way scientists do think makes us aware of how we can think. Samuel Johnson said that a performer riding on three horses may not accomplish anything, but he increases our respect for the faculties of man. The scientists who show that nature rides three horses at once'--or even two horses, on opposite sides of the universe'--also widen our respect for what we are capable of imagining, and it is this action, at its own spooky distance, that really entangles our minds. '...
...barcode never lies
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Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #194 on: 27-12-2015, 06:57:19 »
Ethan Siegel pred božić rešio da se svađa:
 
 Why String Theory Is Not A Scientific Theory

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #195 on: 27-12-2015, 16:33:32 »
Ne znam šta se svađ'o, jer neće da mi otvori link, ali i ja bih. Meni je teorija struna kao stvorena za SF i kreaciju paralelnih svetova. Da ne pominjem pozitivna rešenja vremenskog paradoksa. :lol:  Od nauke ima samo tračak neophodan za klasifikaciju SF dela. xfrog
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #196 on: 29-01-2016, 09:57:30 »
Nije baš ideologija nauke, nego izračunavanje koliko bi kojoj teoriji zavere trebalo da se pokaže da je tačna, ako bi bila tačna:


Maths study shows conspiracies 'prone to unravelling'



Quote
It's difficult to keep a conspiracy under wraps, scientists say, because sooner or later, one of the conspirators will blow its cover.
A study has examined how long alleged conspiracies could "survive" before being revealed - deliberately or unwittingly - to the public at large.
Dr David Grimes, from Oxford University, devised an equation to express this, and then applied it to four famous collusions.
The work appears in Plos One journal.
The equation developed by Dr Grimes, a post-doctoral physicist at Oxford, relied upon three factors: the number of conspirators involved, the amount of time that has passed, and the intrinsic probability of a conspiracy failing.
He then applied his equation to four famous conspiracy theories: The belief that the Moon landing was faked, the belief that climate change is a fraud, the belief that vaccines cause autism, and the belief that pharmaceutical companies have suppressed a cure for cancer.
Dr Grimes's analysis suggests that if these four conspiracies were real, most are very likely to have been revealed as such by now.
Specifically, the Moon landing "hoax" would have been revealed in 3.7 years, the climate change "fraud" in 3.7 to 26.8 years, the vaccine-autism "conspiracy" in 3.2 to 34.8 years, and the cancer "conspiracy" in 3.2 years.
"The mathematical methods used in this paper were broadly similar to the mathematics I have used before in my academic research on radiation physics," Dr Grimes said.Building the equationTo derive his equation, Dr Grimes began with the Poisson distribution, a common statistical tool that measures the probability of a particular event occurring over a certain amount of time.
Using a handful of assumptions, combined with mathematical deduction, Dr Grimes produced a general, but incomplete, formula.
Specifically, he was missing a good estimate for the intrinsic probability of a conspiracy failing. To determine this, Dr Grimes analysed data from three genuine collusions.
The first was the surveillance program conducted by the US National Security Agency (NSA), known as PRISM. This programme involved, at most, 36,000 people and was famously revealed by Edward Snowden after about six years.


The second was the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, in which the cure for syphilis (penicillin) was purposefully withheld from African-American patients.
The experiment may have involved up to 6,700 people, and Dr Peter Buxtun blew the whistle after about 25 years.
The third was an FBI scandal in which it was revealed by Dr Frederic Whitehurst that the agency's forensic analysis was unscientific and misleading, resulting in the imprisonment and execution of innocent people.
Dr Grimes estimates that a maximum of 500 people could have been involved and that it took about six years for the scandal to be exposed.
The equation he created represents a "best case scenario" for conspirators - that is, it optimistically assumes that conspirators are good at keeping secrets and that there are no external investigations at play.Connecting the dotsCrunching the numbers from the three known conspiracies, Dr Grimes calculated that the intrinsic probability of a conspiracy failing is four in one million.
Though this number is low, the chance that a conspiracy is revealed becomes quite large as time passes and the number of conspirators grows.
The Moon landing hoax, for instance, began in 1965 and would have involved about 411,000 Nasa employees. With these parameters, Dr Grimes's equation suggests that the hoax would have been revealed after 3.7 years.



Additionally, since the Moon landing hoax is now more than 50 years old, Dr Grimes's equation predicts that, at most, only 251 conspirators could have been involved.
Thus, it is more reasonable to believe that the Moon landing was real.
Prof Monty McGovern, a mathematician at the University of Washington, said the study's methods "strike me as reasonable and the probabilities computed quite plausible".
Dr Grimes added: "While I think it's difficult to impossible to sway those with a conviction... I would hope this paper is useful to those more in the middle ground who might wonder whether scientists could perpetuate a hoax or not."

дејан

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #197 on: 29-01-2016, 11:08:19 »
^ ово је много глупо и притом неистинито...рецимо само таскиги експеримент је трајао(!!!!) 40 година
...barcode never lies
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mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #198 on: 29-01-2016, 11:22:34 »
Da, ali koliko ljudi je učestvovalo u zaveri? Što manje ljudi, to je manja šansa da će nešto da procuri.


Edit: bolji kontraprimer su sve organizovane religije.

дејан

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #199 on: 29-01-2016, 14:33:29 »
40 година је тај програм добијао финансије од државе, тако да стварно немам појма колико је људи учествовало...колико администрација...колико одбора...надзорних органа...комитета...блаблабла...итд....а директна и лако проверљива лаж у тексту је да је прошло 'око 25 година' а прошло је 34 од првог покушаја и тачно 40 од чланка који је 'разоткрио' заверу (таскиги је до тад била 'теорија завере')
докон поп и јариће крсти...још кад му дају паре за то, крсти их и са левом и са десном и осталим (за јариће) пригодним и мање пригодним екстремитетима...


пс. да, организована религија је стварно врло добар контрапример
...barcode never lies
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Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #200 on: 05-03-2016, 07:39:36 »
Down With Algebra II!
 
Quote

In his new book The Math Myth: And Other STEM Delusions, political scientist Andrew Hacker proposes replacing algebra II and calculus in the high school and college curriculum with a practical course in statistics for citizenship (more on that later). Only mathematicians and some engineers actually use advanced math in their day-to-day work, Hacker argues—even the doctors, accountants, and coders of the future shouldn’t have to master abstract math that they’ll never need.
I showed the book to my husband, Andrei, a computer programmer who loved math in school. He scrunched up his face. “People don’t use Shakespeare in their jobs, but it’s still important for them to read it,” he said.
“It’s not the same,” I told him. “Reading fiction builds empathy.”
“Math helps us understand the world around us!” Andrei replied. “Like how derivatives demonstrate change over time.” He smiled, and I could tell that for him, it was all clear and beautiful.
But I had no idea what he was talking about. In high school, I found math so indecipherable that I would sometimes cry over my homework. I don’t think I ever understood what a derivative signified 15 years ago, when I was struggling my way to a low B in calculus—a class I was convinced I had to take to pad my college applications. Hacker attacks not only algebra but the entire push for more rigorous STEM education.
 So Hacker’s book is deeply comforting. I’m not alone, it tells me—lots of smart people hate math. The reason I hated math, was mediocre at it, and still managed to earn a bachelor’s degree was because I had upper-middle-class parents who paid for tutoring and eventually enrolled me in a college that doesn’t require math credits in order to graduate. For low-income students, math is often an impenetrable barrier to academic success. Algebra II, which includes polynomials and logarithms, and is required by the new Common Core curriculum standards used by 47 states and territories, drives dropouts at both the high school and college levels. The situation is most dire at public colleges, which are the most likely to require abstract algebra as a precondition for a degree in every field, including art and theater.
“We are really destroying a tremendous amount of talent—people who could be talented in sports writing or being an emergency medical technician, but can’t even get a community college degree,” Hacker told me in an interview. “I regard this math requirement as highly irrational.”
Unlike most professors who publicly opine about the education system, Hacker, though an eminent scholar, teaches at a low-prestige institution, Queens College, part of the City University of New York system. Most CUNY students come from low-income families, and a 2009 faculty report found that 57 percent fail the system’s required algebra course. A subsequent study showed that when students were allowed to take a statistics class instead, only 44 percent failed.
Such findings inspired Hacker, in 2013, to create a curriculum to test the ideas he presents in The Math Myth. For two years, he taught what is essentially a course in civic numeracy. Hacker asked students to investigate the gerrymandering of Pennsylvania congressional districts by calculating the number of actual votes Democrats and Republicans received in 2012. The students discovered that it took an average of 181,474 votes to win a Republican seat, but 271,970 votes to win a Democratic seat. In another lesson, Hacker distributed two Schedule C forms, which businesses use to declare their tax-deductible expenses, and asked students to figure out which form was fabricated. Then he introduced Benford’s Law, which holds that in any set of real-world numbers, ones, twos, and threes are more frequent initial digits than fours, fives, sixes, sevens, eights, and nines. By applying this rule, the students could identify the fake Schedule C. (The IRS uses the same technique.)
In his 19-person numeracy seminar, the lowest grade was a C, Hacker says. But he says that the math establishment—a group he calls “the Mandarins” in his book—doesn’t take kindly to a political scientist challenging disciplinary dogma, even at Queens College. The school has reclassified his class as a “special studies” course.
Hacker’s previous book, Higher Education? How Universities Are Wasting Our Money and Failing Our Kids, took a dim view of the tenured professoriate, and he extends that perspective in The Math Myth. Math professors, consumed by their esoteric, super-specialized research, simply don’t care very much about the typical undergraduate, Hacker contends. At universities with graduate programs, tenure-track faculty members teach only 10 percent of introductory math classes. At undergraduate colleges, tenure-track professors handle 42 percent of introductory classes. Graduate students and adjuncts shoulder the vast majority of the load, and they aren’t inspiring many students to continue their math education. In 2013, only 1 percent of all bachelor’s degrees awarded were in math.
“In a way, math departments throughout the country don’t worry,” Hacker says. “They have big budgets because their classes are required, so they keep on going.”
Hacker attacks not only algebra but the entire push for more rigorous STEM education—science, technology, engineering, and math—in K-12 schools, including the demand for high school classes in computer programming. He is skeptical of one of the foundational tenets of the standards-and-accountability education reform movement, that there is a quantitative “skills gap” between Americans and the 21st-century job market. He notes that between 2010 and 2012, 38 percent of computer science and math majors were unable to find a job in their field. During that same period, corporations like Microsoft were pushing for more H-1B visas for Indian programmers and more coding classes. Why? Hacker hypothesizes that tech companies want an over-supply of entry-level coders in order to drive wages down. Maybe I would have found abstract math more enjoyable if my teachers had been able to explain it better.
 After Hacker previewed the ideas in The Math Myth in a 2012 New York Times op-ed, the Internet lit up with responses accusing him of anti-intellectualism. At book length, it’s harder to dismiss his ideas. He has a deep respect for what he calls the “truth and beauty” of math; his discussion of the discovery and immutability of pi taught me more about the meaning of 3.14 than any class I’ve ever taken. He’s careful to address almost every counterargument a math traditionalist could throw at him. For example, he writes that students will probably learn little about concepts of proof that are relevant to their lives, such as legal proof, by studying abstract math proofs; they’d be better served by spending time studying how juries consider reasonable doubt. More controversially, he points out that many of the nations with excellent math performance, such as China, Russia, and North Korea, are repressive. “So what can we conclude about mathematics, when its brand of brilliance can thrive amid onerous oppression?” he writes. “One response may be that the subject, by its very nature, is so aloof from political and social reality that its discoveries give rulers no causes for concern. If mathematics had the power to move minds toward controversial terrain, it would be viewed as a threat by wary states.”
I found Hacker overall to be pretty convincing. But after finishing The Math Myth, I kept thinking back to how my husband talked about derivatives, how he helped me connect the abstract to the concrete. As a longtime education reporter, I know that American teachers, especially those in the elementary grades, have taken few math courses themselves, and often actively dislike the subject. Maybe I would have found abstract math more enjoyable if my teachers had been able to explain it better, perhaps by connecting it somehow to the real world. And if that happened in every school, maybe lots more American kids, even low-income ones, would be able to make the leap from arithmetic to the conceptual mathematics of algebra II and beyond.
I called Daniel Willingham, a cognitive psychologist at the University of Virginia who studies how students learn. He is worried about any call to make math—or any other subject—less abstract. I told him that even though I once passed a calculus class, my husband had to explain to me what a derivative was, as opposed to how to find it using an equation; Willingham replied, “This is very common. There are three legs on which math rests: math fact, math algorithm, and conceptual understanding. American kids are OK on facts, OK on algorithm, and near zero on conceptual understanding. It goes back to preschool. And this is what countries like Singapore do so well. They start with the conceptual business very, very early.” Willingham believes substituting statistics for algebra II might not solve the problem of high school math as a stumbling block. After all, basic statistical concepts—such as effect size or causality—also require conceptual understanding.
Of course, if math teachers are to help students understand how abstract concepts function in the real world, they will have to understand those abstractions themselves. So it’s not reassuring that American teachers are a product of the same sub-par math education system they work in, or that we hire 100,000 to 200,000 new teachers each year at a time when less than 20,000 people are majoring in math annually.
Could better teachers help more students pass algebra II? Given high student debt, low teacher pay, and the historically low status of the American teaching profession, it would be a tough road. In the meantime, it’s probably a good idea to give students multiple math pathways toward high school and college graduation—some less challenging than others. If we don’t, we’ll be punishing kids for the failures of an entire system.
 

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #201 on: 17-03-2016, 09:22:07 »
Should All Research Papers Be Free?



Quote
DRAWING comparisons to Edward Snowden, a graduate student from Kazakhstan named Alexandra Elbakyan is believed to be hiding out in Russia after illegally leaking millions of documents. While she didn’t reveal state secrets, she took a stand for the public’s right to know by providing free online access to just about every scientific paper ever published, on topics ranging from acoustics to zymology.
Her protest against scholarly journals’ paywalls has earned her rock-star status among advocates for open access, and has shined a light on how scientific findings that could inform personal and public policy decisions on matters as consequential as health care, economics and the environment are often prohibitively expensive to read and impossible to aggregate and datamine.
“Realistically only scientists at really big, well-funded universities in the developed world have full access to published research,” said Michael Eisen, a professor of genetics, genomics and development at the University of California, Berkeley, and a longtime champion of open access. “The current system slows science by slowing communication of work, slows it by limiting the number of people who can access information and quashes the ability to do the kind of data analysis” that is possible when articles aren’t “sitting on various siloed databases.”
Journal publishers collectively earned $10 billion last year, much of it from research libraries, which pay annual subscription fees ranging from $2,000 to $35,000 per title if they don’t buy subscriptions of bundled titles, which cost millions. The largest companies, like Elsevier, Taylor & Francis, Springer and Wiley, typically have profit margins of over 30 percent, which they say is justified because they are curators of research, selecting only the most worthy papers for publication. Moreover, they orchestrate the vetting, editing and archiving of articles.
That is the argument Elsevier made, supported by a raft of industry amicus briefs, when it filed suit against Ms. Elbakyan, resulting in an injunction last fall against her file-sharing website, Sci-Hub. “It’s as if somehow stealing content is justifiable if it’s seen as expensive, and I find that surprising,” said Alicia Wise, director of universal access at Elsevier. “It’s not as if you’d walk into a grocery store and feel vindicated about stealing an organic chocolate bar as long as you left the Kit Kat bar on the shelf.”
But since a federal court order isn’t enforceable in Russia (Ms. Elbakyan won’t confirm where she is exactly), much less on the Internet, Sci-Hub continues to deliver hundreds of thousands of journal articles per day to a total of 10 million visitors. In an email exchange, Ms. Elbakyan said her motivations were both practical — she needs articles to do her own academic research — and philosophical. She views the Internet as a “global brain,” and because paywalls inhibit the free flow of information, they prevent humanity from being fully “conscious.” The next court date on the matter is March 17.
A shadow hanging over the case is the memory of the computer programmer and open access activist Aaron Swartz, who hanged himself in 2013 after federal prosecutors charged him with wire fraud and various violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act after he downloaded millions of academic journal articles via an M.I.T. server. He was facing crushing financial penalties along with jail time, even though it wasn’t clear what he planned to do with the cache.
In response to the suit filed against her, Ms. Elbakyan wrote a letter to the judge pointing out that Elsevier, like other journal publishers, pays nothing to acquire researchers’ studies. Moreover, publishers don’t pay for the volunteer peer reviewers or editors. But they charge those same researchers, reviewers and editors, not to mention the public, whose tax dollars most likely funded the study in the first place, to read the resulting articles.
“That is very different from the music or movie industry, where creators receive money from each copy sold,” Ms. Elbakyan wrote. “I would like to also mention that we never received any complaints from authors or researchers.”
Legally downloading a single journal article when you don’t have a subscription costs around $30, which adds up quickly considering a search on even narrow topics can return hundreds if not thousands of articles. And the skyrocketing cost of journal subscriptions, which have unlimited downloads, is straining library budgets.
“The prices have been rising twice as fast as the price of health care over the past 20 years, so there’s a real scandal there to be exposed,” said Peter Suber, Harvard’s director of the office of scholarly communication. “It’s important that Harvard is suffering when it has the largest budget of any academic library in the world.”
Mr. Suber was quick to add, however, that he didn’t condone Ms. Elbaykan’s guerrilla tactics: “Unlawful access gives open access a bad name.”
One solution, he said, was to persuade researchers to publish in open-accesss journals like those under the umbrella of the Public Library of Science, or PLOS, co-founded by Dr. Eisen at Berkeley. But that financial model requires authors to pay a processing charge that can run anywhere from $1,500 to $3,000 per article so the publisher can recoup its costs.
Another option is to upload papers to so-called pre-print repositories where research papers are made available before they’ve been accepted by a publisher and undergone peer review or editing. Inhibiting this is the widely held belief that more prestigious journals are less likely to accept a study that’s already in the public domain.
Following Mr. Swartz’s death, the White House issued a directive requiring agencies that make more than $100 million in research grants to develop plans so that recipients release their findings to the public within a year of publication. Moreover, there is legislation before Congress that requires the same, only shortening the embargo period to six months. Private funders such as the Wellcome Trust, Howard Hughes Medical Institute and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation have also begun making grants contingent on open access to resulting articles, as well as possibly to the underlying data.
Researchers in some disciplines, such as physics and mathematics, have started open access journals to protest journal publishers’ paywalls or have formed consortiums that will cover the fees publishers charge authors to make their work open access.
“We are starting to see a shift to an era of experimentation and implementation on how open access can work,” said David Crotty, editorial director for journals policy at the nonprofit Oxford University Press, which has been moving toward exclusively open access formats when starting new journals.   Possibly the biggest barrier to open access is that scientists are judged by where they have published when they compete for jobs, promotions, tenure and grant money. And the most prestigious journals, such as Cell, Nature and The Lancet, also tend to be the most protective of their content.
“The real people to blame are the leaders of the scientific community — Nobel scientists, heads of institutions, the presidents of universities — who are in a position to change things but have never faced up to this problem in part because they are beneficiaries of the system,” said Dr. Eisen. “University presidents love to tout how important their scientists are because they publish in these journals.”
Until the system changes, Ms. Elbakyan said she would continue to distribute journal articles to whoever wants them. Paraphrasing part of the United Nations Charter, she said, “Everyone has the right to freely share in scientific advancement and its benefits.”

Labudan

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #202 on: 10-04-2016, 21:11:10 »
The new astrology
 By fetishising mathematical models, economists turned economics into a highly paid pseudoscience

by Alan Jay Levinovitz

Since the 2008 financial crisis, colleges and universities have faced increased pressure to identify essential disciplines, and cut the rest. In 2009, Washington State University announced it would eliminate the department of theatre and dance, the department of community and rural sociology, and the German major – the same year that the University of Louisiana at Lafayette ended its philosophy major. In 2012, Emory University in Atlanta did away with the visual arts department and its journalism programme. The cutbacks aren’t restricted to the humanities: in 2011, the state of Texas announced it would eliminate nearly half of its public undergraduate physics programmes. Even when there’s no downsizing, faculty salaries have been frozen and departmental budgets have shrunk.

But despite the funding crunch, it’s a bull market for academic economists. According to a 2015 sociological study in the Journal of Economic Perspectives, the median salary of economics teachers in 2012 increased to $103,000 – nearly $30,000 more than sociologists. For the top 10 per cent of economists, that figure jumps to $160,000, higher than the next most lucrative academic discipline – engineering. These figures, stress the study’s authors, do not include other sources of income such as consulting fees for banks and hedge funds, which, as many learned from the documentary Inside Job (2010), are often substantial. (Ben Bernanke, a former academic economist and ex-chairman of the Federal Reserve, earns $200,000-$400,000 for a single appearance.)

Unlike engineers and chemists, economists cannot point to concrete objects – cell phones, plastic – to justify the high valuation of their discipline. Nor, in the case of financial economics and macroeconomics, can they point to the predictive power of their theories. Hedge funds employ cutting-edge economists who command princely fees, but routinely underperform index funds. Eight years ago, Warren Buffet made a 10-year, $1 million bet that a portfolio of hedge funds would lose to the S&P 500, and it looks like he’s going to collect. In 1998, a fund that boasted two Nobel Laureates as advisors collapsed, nearly causing a global financial crisis.

The failure of the field to predict the 2008 crisis has also been well-documented. In 2003, for example, only five years before the Great Recession, the Nobel Laureate Robert E Lucas Jr told the American Economic Association that ‘macroeconomics […] has succeeded: its central problem of depression prevention has been solved’. Short-term predictions fair little better – in April 2014, for instance, a survey of 67 economists yielded 100 per cent consensus: interest rates would rise over the next six months. Instead, they fell. A lot.

Nonetheless, surveys indicate that economists see their discipline as ‘the most scientific of the social sciences’. What is the basis of this collective faith, shared by universities, presidents and billionaires? Shouldn’t successful and powerful people be the first to spot the exaggerated worth of a discipline, and the least likely to pay for it?

In the hypothetical worlds of rational markets, where much of economic theory is set, perhaps. But real-world history tells a different story, of mathematical models masquerading as science and a public eager to buy them, mistaking elegant equations for empirical accuracy.

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A
s an extreme example, take the extraordinary success of Evangeline Adams, a turn-of-the-20th-century astrologer whose clients included the president of Prudential Insurance, two presidents of the New York Stock Exchange, the steel magnate Charles M Schwab, and the banker J P Morgan. To understand why titans of finance would consult Adams about the market, it is essential to recall that astrology used to be a technical discipline, requiring reams of astronomical data and mastery of specialised mathematical formulas. ‘An astrologer’ is, in fact, the Oxford English Dictionary’s second definition of ‘mathematician’. For centuries, mapping stars was the job of mathematicians, a job motivated and funded by the widespread belief that star-maps were good guides to earthly affairs. The best astrology required the best astronomy, and the best astronomy was done by mathematicians – exactly the kind of person whose authority might appeal to bankers and financiers.

In fact, when Adams was arrested in 1914 for violating a New York law against astrology, it was mathematics that eventually exonerated her. During the trial, her lawyer Clark L Jordan emphasised mathematics in order to distinguish his client’s practice from superstition, calling astrology ‘a mathematical or exact science’. Adams herself demonstrated this ‘scientific’ method by reading the astrological chart of the judge’s son. The judge was impressed: the plaintiff, he observed, went through a ‘mathematical process to get at her conclusions… I am satisfied that the element of fraud… is absent here.’

Romer compares debates among economists to those between 16th-century advocates of heliocentrism and geocentrism

The enchanting force of mathematics blinded the judge – and Adams’s prestigious clients – to the fact that astrology relies upon a highly unscientific premise, that the position of stars predicts personality traits and human affairs such as the economy. It is this enchanting force that explains the enduring popularity of financial astrology, even today. The historian Caley Horan at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology described to me how computing technology made financial astrology explode in the 1970s and ’80s. ‘Within the world of finance, there’s always a superstitious, quasi-spiritual trend to find meaning in markets,’ said Horan. ‘Technical analysts at big banks, they’re trying to find patterns in past market behaviour, so it’s not a leap for them to go to astrology.’ In 2000, USA Today quoted Robin Griffiths, the chief technical analyst at HSBC, the world’s third largest bank, saying that ‘most astrology stuff doesn’t check out, but some of it does’.

Ultimately, the problem isn’t with worshipping models of the stars, but rather with uncritical worship of the language used to model them, and nowhere is this more prevalent than in economics. The economist Paul Romer at New York University has recently begun calling attention to an issue he dubs ‘mathiness’ – first in the paper ‘Mathiness in the Theory of Economic Growth’ (2015) and then in a series of blog posts. Romer believes that macroeconomics, plagued by mathiness, is failing to progress as a true science should, and compares debates among economists to those between 16th-century advocates of heliocentrism and geocentrism. Mathematics, he acknowledges, can help economists to clarify their thinking and reasoning. But the ubiquity of mathematical theory in economics also has serious downsides: it creates a high barrier to entry for those who want to participate in the professional dialogue, and makes checking someone’s work excessively laborious. Worst of all, it imbues economic theory with unearned empirical authority.

‘I’ve come to the position that there should be a stronger bias against the use of math,’ Romer explained to me. ‘If somebody came and said: “Look, I have this Earth-changing insight about economics, but the only way I can express it is by making use of the quirks of the Latin language”, we’d say go to hell, unless they could convince us it was really essential. The burden of proof is on them.’

Right now, however, there is widespread bias in favour of using mathematics. The success of math-heavy disciplines such as physics and chemistry has granted mathematical formulas with decisive authoritative force. Lord Kelvin, the 19th-century mathematical physicist, expressed this quantitative obsession:

When you can measure what you are speaking about and express it in numbers you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it… in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind.

The trouble with Kelvin’s statement is that measurement and mathematics do not guarantee the status of science – they guarantee only the semblance of science. When the presumptions or conclusions of a scientific theory are absurd or simply false, the theory ought to be questioned and, eventually, rejected. The discipline of economics, however, is presently so blinkered by the talismanic authority of mathematics that theories go overvalued and unchecked.

Romer is not the first to elaborate the mathiness critique. In 1886, an article in Science accused economics of misusing the language of the physical sciences to conceal ‘emptiness behind a breastwork of mathematical formulas’. More recently, Deirdre N McCloskey’s The Rhetoric of Economics (1998) and Robert H Nelson’s Economics as Religion (2001) both argued that mathematics in economic theory serves, in McCloskey’s words, primarily to deliver the message ‘Look at how very scientific I am.’

After the Great Recession, the failure of economic science to protect our economy was once again impossible to ignore. In 2009, the Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman tried to explain it in The New York Times with a version of the mathiness diagnosis. ‘As I see it,’ he wrote, ‘the economics profession went astray because economists, as a group, mistook beauty, clad in impressive-looking mathematics, for truth.’ Krugman named economists’ ‘desire… to show off their mathematical prowess’ as the ‘central cause of the profession’s failure’.

The mathiness critique isn’t limited to macroeconomics. In 2014, the Stanford financial economist Paul Pfleiderer published the paper ‘Chameleons: The Misuse of Theoretical Models in Finance and Economics’, which helped to inspire Romer’s understanding of mathiness. Pfleiderer called attention to the prevalence of ‘chameleons’ – economic models ‘with dubious connections to the real world’ that substitute ‘mathematical elegance’ for empirical accuracy. Like Romer, Pfleiderer wants economists to be transparent about this sleight of hand. ‘Modelling,’ he told me, ‘is now elevated to the point where things have validity just because you can come up with a model.’

The notion that an entire culture – not just a few eccentric financiers – could be bewitched by empty, extravagant theories might seem absurd. How could all those people, all that math, be mistaken? This was my own feeling as I began investigating mathiness and the shaky foundations of modern economic science. Yet, as a scholar of Chinese religion, it struck me that I’d seen this kind of mistake before, in ancient Chinese attitudes towards the astral sciences. Back then, governments invested incredible amounts of money in mathematical models of the stars. To evaluate those models, government officials had to rely on a small cadre of experts who actually understood the mathematics – experts riven by ideological differences, who couldn’t even agree on how to test their models. And, of course, despite collective faith that these models would improve the fate of the Chinese people, they did not.

Astral Science in Early Imperial China, a forthcoming book by
the historian Daniel P Morgan, shows that in ancient China, as in the Western world, the most valuable type of mathematics was devoted to the realm of divinity – to the sky, in their case (and to the market, in ours). Just as astrology and mathematics were once synonymous in the West, the Chinese spoke of li, the science of calendrics, which early dictionaries also glossed as ‘calculation’, ‘numbers’ and ‘order’. Li models, like macroeconomic theories, were considered essential to good governance. In the classic Book of Documents, the legendary sage king Yao transfers the throne to his successor with mention of a single duty: ‘Yao said: “Oh thou, Shun! The li numbers of heaven rest in thy person.”’

China’s oldest mathematical text invokes astronomy and divine kingship in its very title – The Arithmetical Classic of the Gnomon of the Zhou. The title’s inclusion of ‘Zhou’ recalls the mythic Eden of the Western Zhou dynasty (1045–771 BCE), implying that paradise on Earth can be realised through proper calculation. The book’s introduction to the Pythagorean theorem asserts that ‘the methods used by Yu the Great in governing the world were derived from these numbers’. It was an unquestioned article of faith: the mathematical patterns that govern the stars also govern the world. Faith in a divine, invisible hand, made visible by mathematics. No wonder that a newly discovered text fragment from 200 BCE extolls the virtues of mathematics over the humanities. In it, a student asks his teacher whether he should spend more time learning speech or numbers. His teacher replies: ‘If my good sir cannot fathom both at once, then abandon speech and fathom numbers, [for] numbers can speak, [but] speech cannot number.’

Modern governments, universities and businesses underwrite the production of economic theory with huge amounts of capital. The same was true for li production in ancient China. The emperor – the ‘Son of Heaven’ – spent astronomical sums refining mathematical models of the stars. Take the armillary sphere, such as the two-metre cage of graduated bronze rings in Nanjing, made to represent the celestial sphere and used to visualise data in three-dimensions. As Morgan emphasises, the sphere was literally made of money. Bronze being the basis of the currency, governments were smelting cash by the metric ton to pour it into li. A divine, mathematical world-engine, built of cash, sanctifying the powers that be.

The enormous investment in li depended on a huge assumption: that good government, successful rituals and agricultural productivity all depended upon the accuracy of li. But there were, in fact, no practical advantages to the continued refinement of li models. The calendar rounded off decimal points such that the difference between two models, hotly contested in theory, didn’t matter to the final product. The work of selecting auspicious days for imperial ceremonies thus benefited only in appearance from mathematical rigour. And of course the comets, plagues and earthquakes that these ceremonies promised to avert kept on coming. Farmers, for their part, went about business as usual. Occasional governmental efforts to scientifically micromanage farm life in different climes using li ended in famine and mass migration.

Like many economic models today, li models were less important to practical affairs than their creators (and consumers) thought them to be. And, like today, only a few people could understand them. In 101 BCE, Emperor Wudi tasked high-level bureaucrats – including the Great Director of the Stars – with creating a new li that would glorify the beginning of his path to immortality. The bureaucrats refused the task because ‘they couldn’t do the math’, and recommended the emperor outsource it to experts.

The equivalent in economic theory might be to grant a model high points for success in predicting short-term markets, while failing to deduct for missing the Great Recession

The debates of these ancient li experts bear a striking resemblance to those of present-day economists. In 223 CE, a petition was submitted to the emperor asking him to approve tests of a new li model developed by the assistant director of the astronomical office, a man named Han Yi.

At the time of the petition, Han Yi’s model, and its competitor, the so-called Supernal Icon, had already been subjected to three years of ‘reference’, ‘comparison’ and ‘exchange’. Still, no one could agree which one was better. Nor, for that matter, was there any agreement on how they should be tested.

In the end, a live trial involving the prediction of eclipses and heliacal risings was used to settle the debate. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see this trial was seriously flawed. The helical rising (first visibility) of planets depends on non-mathematical factors such as eyesight and atmospheric conditions. That’s not to mention the scoring of the trial, which was modelled on archery competitions. Archers scored points for proximity to the bullseye, with no consideration for overall accuracy. The equivalent in economic theory might be to grant a model high points for success in predicting short-term markets, while failing to deduct for missing the Great Recession.

None of this is to say that li models were useless or inherently unscientific. For the most part, li experts were genuine mathematical virtuosos who valued the integrity of their discipline. Despite being based on inaccurate assumptions – that the Earth was at the centre of the cosmos – their models really did work to predict celestial motions. Imperfect though the live trial might have been, it indicates that superior predictive power was a theory’s most important virtue. All of this is consistent with real science, and Chinese astronomy progressed as a science, until it reached the limits imposed by its assumptions.

However, there was no science to the belief that accurate li would improve the outcome of rituals, agriculture or government policy. No science to the Hall of Light, a temple for the emperor built on the model of a magic square. There, by numeric ritual gesture, the Son of Heaven was thought to channel the invisible order of heaven for the prosperity of man. This was quasi-theology, the belief that heavenly patterns – mathematical patterns – could be used to model every event in the natural world, in politics, even the body. Macro- and microcosm were scaled reflections of one another, yin and yang in a unifying, salvific mathematical vision. The expensive gadgets, the personnel, the bureaucracy, the debates, the competition – all of this testified to the divinely authoritative power of mathematics. The result, then as now, was overvaluation of mathematical models based on unscientific exaggerations of their utility.


I
n ancient China it would have been unfair to blame li experts for the pseudoscientific exploitation of their theories. These men had no way to evaluate the scientific merits of assumptions and theories – ‘science’, in a formalised, post-Enlightenment sense, didn’t really exist. But today it is possible to distinguish, albeit roughly, science from pseudoscience, astronomy from astrology. Hypothetical theories, whether those of economists or conspiracists, aren’t inherently pseudoscientific. Conspiracy theories can be diverting – even instructive – flights of fancy. They become pseudoscience only when promoted from fiction to fact without sufficient evidence.

Romer believes that fellow economists know the truth about their discipline, but don’t want to admit it. ‘If you get people to lower their shield, they’ll tell you it’s a big game they’re playing,’ he told me. ‘They’ll say: “Paul, you may be right, but this makes us look really bad, and it’s going to make it hard for us to recruit young people.”’

Demanding more honesty seems reasonable, but it presumes that economists understand the tenuous relationship between mathematical models and scientific legitimacy. In fact, many assume the connection is obvious – just as in ancient China, the connection between li and the world was taken for granted. When reflecting in 1999 on what makes economics more scientific than the other social sciences, the Harvard economist Richard B Freeman explained that economics ‘attracts stronger students than [political science or sociology], and our courses are more mathematically demanding’. In Lives of the Laureates (2004), Robert E Lucas Jr writes rhapsodically about the importance of mathematics: ‘Economic theory is mathematical analysis. Everything else is just pictures and talk.’ Lucas’s veneration of mathematics leads him to adopt a method that can only be described as a subversion of empirical science:

The construction of theoretical models is our way to bring order to the way we think about the world, but the process necessarily involves ignoring some evidence or alternative theories – setting them aside. That can be hard to do – facts are facts – and sometimes my unconscious mind carries out the abstraction for me: I simply fail to see some of the data or some alternative theory.

Even for those who agree with Romer, conflict of interest still poses a problem. Why would skeptical astronomers question the emperor’s faith in their models? In a phone conversation, Daniel Hausman, a philosopher of economics at the University of Wisconsin, put it bluntly: ‘If you reject the power of theory, you demote economists from their thrones. They don’t want to become like sociologists.’

George F DeMartino, an economist and an ethicist at the University of Denver, frames the issue in economic terms. ‘The interest of the profession is in pursuing its analysis in a language that’s inaccessible to laypeople and even some economists,’ he explained to me. ‘What we’ve done is monopolise this kind of expertise, and we of all people know how that gives us power.’

Every economist I interviewed agreed that conflicts of interest were highly problematic for the scientific integrity of their field – but only tenured ones were willing to go on the record. ‘In economics and finance, if I’m trying to decide whether I’m going to write something favourable or unfavourable to bankers, well, if it’s favourable that might get me a dinner in Manhattan with movers and shakers,’ Pfleiderer said to me. ‘I’ve written articles that wouldn’t curry favour with bankers but I did that when I had tenure.’

when mathematical theory is the ultimate arbiter of truth, it becomes difficult to see the difference between science and pseudoscience

Then there’s the additional problem of sunk-cost bias. If you’ve invested in an armillary sphere, it’s painful to admit that it doesn’t perform as advertised. When confronted with their profession’s lack of predictive accuracy, some economists find it difficult to admit the truth. Easier, instead, to double down, like the economist John H Cochrane at the University of Chicago. The problem isn’t too much mathematics, he writes in response to Krugman’s 2009 post-Great-Recession mea culpa for the field, but rather ‘that we don’t have enough math’. Astrology doesn’t work, sure, but only because the armillary sphere isn’t big enough and the equations aren’t good enough.

If overhauling economics depended solely on economists, then mathiness, conflict of interest and sunk-cost bias could easily prove insurmountable. Fortunately, non-experts also participate in the market for economic theory. If people remain enchanted by PhDs and Nobel Prizes awarded for the production of complicated mathematical theories, those theories will remain valuable. If they become disenchanted, the value will drop.

Economists who rationalise their discipline’s value can be convincing, especially with prestige and mathiness on their side. But there’s no reason to keep believing them. The pejorative verb ‘rationalise’ itself warns of mathiness, reminding us that we often deceive each other by making prior convictions, biases and ideological positions look ‘rational’, a word that confuses truth with mathematical reasoning. To be rational is, simply, to think in ratios, like the ratios that govern the geometry of the stars. Yet when mathematical theory is the ultimate arbiter of truth, it becomes difficult to see the difference between science and pseudoscience. The result is people like the judge in Evangeline Adams’s trial, or the Son of Heaven in ancient China, who trust the mathematical exactitude of theories without considering their performance – that is, who confuse math with science, rationality with reality.

There is no longer any excuse for making the same mistake with economic theory. For more than a century, the public has been warned, and the way forward is clear. It’s time to stop wasting our money and recognise the high priests for what they really are: gifted social scientists who excel at producing mathematical explanations of economies, but who fail, like astrologers before them, at prophecy.

https://aeon.co/essays/how-economists-rode-maths-to-become-our-era-s-astrologers?_e_pi_=7%2CPAGE_ID10%2C1613224273



šta će mi bogatstvo i svecka slava sva kada mora umreti lepa Nirdala

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #203 on: 12-07-2016, 08:34:56 »
Has Physics Gotten Something Really Important Really Wrong?



Frank se u ovom tekstu poziva na ovaj prošlogodišnji svoj napis za NYT koji takođe vredi pročitati:




A Crisis at the Edge of Physics

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #204 on: 12-07-2016, 09:14:18 »
I ovo je lepo za čitanje:



How Feynman Diagrams Almost Saved Space

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #205 on: 12-07-2016, 14:12:12 »
Has Physics Gotten Something Really Important Really Wrong?



Frank se u ovom tekstu poziva na ovaj prošlogodišnji svoj napis za NYT koji takođe vredi pročitati:




A Crisis at the Edge of Physics

odlični tekstovi, hvala.
problem s današnjom fizikom je što tehnologija, nažalost, još uvek ne može da isprati hipoteze koje postavi ljudski mozak.
i naravno da je a step back jedino moguće rešenje, jbg, koliko god bilo privlačno ipak bez empirijske potvrde nema (prirodne) nauke.
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #206 on: 26-08-2016, 08:00:08 »
Problem sa današnjom genetikom je što autori naulčnih radova koriste excel kao bazu podataka umesto kao alat za rad sa tabelama:


20% of scientific papers on genes contain gene name conversion errors caused by Excel



According to three scientists, Mark Ziemann, Yotam Eren, and Assam El-Osta, Microsoft Excel has trouble converting gene names. In the scientific article, titled “Gene name errors are widespread in the scientific literature,” article’s abstract section, the scientists explain:
“The spreadsheet software Microsoft Excel, when used with default settings, is known to convert gene names to dates and floating-point numbers. A programmatic scan of leading genomics journals reveals that approximately one-fifth of papers with supplementary Excel gene lists contain erroneous gene name conversions.”
It’s easy to see why Excel might have problems with certain gene names when you see the “gene symbols” that the scientists use as examples:
“For example, gene symbols such as
SEPT2 (Septin 2) and MARCH1 [Membrane-Associated Ring Finger (C3HC4) 1, E3 Ubiquitin Protein Ligase] are converted by default to ‘2-Sep’ and ‘1-Mar’, respectively. Furthermore, RIKEN identifiers were described to be automatically converted to floating point numbers (i.e. from accession ‘2310009E13’ to ‘2.31E+13’). Since that report, we have uncovered further instances where gene symbols were converted to dates in supplementary data of recently published papers (e.g. ‘SEPT2’ converted to ‘2006/09/02’). This suggests that gene name errors continue to be a problem in supplementary files accompanying articles. Inadvertent gene symbol conversion is problematic because these supplementary files are an important resource in the genomics community that are frequently reused. Our aim here is to raise awareness of the problem.”These scientists didn’t have to write a scientific paper on the problems that Microsoft Excel causes. An easier fix would be “to raise awareness of the problem” via Excel UserVoice or reach out to the Excel team on Twitter for a faster response. It is a bit alarming that 20% of scientific papers have errors due to Excel, but it’s even more confusing that scientists don’t try to figure out a way to solve the problem. This latest scientific paper is not the first of its kind, as a Bing search can easily reveal.
If you are interested in reading their full scientific paper, go here. Let us know in the comments if you think this is something Microsoft needs to address in Excel.

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #207 on: 26-08-2016, 08:17:57 »
ma ok excel al fenomenalno je kako autori, pre uploadovanja supplementary fajlova, ne prođu kroz listu gena koju naprave i ne provere da li je sve ok.

crno nam se piše a jedno 90% trenutnih scientific papers je full shit. pre neki dan pričam s koleginicom, frka im u labu jer ni oni sami ne mogu da ponove rezultat koji su već publikovali. reproducibilnost nula. a tek što su ljudi neskloni ponavljanju eksperimenta ako prvi put dobiju rezultat koji im se sviđa. da ne veruješ. hit.

That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #208 on: 26-08-2016, 08:21:16 »
Čovek bi pomislio da je pir rivjuovanje mehanizam koji će to malko nivelisati...

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #209 on: 26-08-2016, 08:29:21 »
kad smo već kod pir rivjuisanja, to funkcioniše po principu: s kim si dobar taj je obično blagonaklon, s kim nisi dobar ili si nedobog u svađi ili kompeticija, taj je uglavnom neblagonaklon.
poseban problem su anonimni pir rivjui i, kako starim, sve više mislim da anonimnost treba ukinuti premda je velika opasnost da bismo tako otvorili pandorinu kutiju: - ti si mi odbio rad, sad ću ja tebi. i slično.

jbt, ljude treba istrebiti, nauku posebno.
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #210 on: 26-08-2016, 08:36:03 »
Nauka je ono na šta se oslanjamo da bi se doseglo istrebljenje. Požurite!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #211 on: 29-08-2016, 07:54:08 »
HAARP's new owner holds open house to prove facility 'is not capable of mind control'



Quote
   HAARP is under new management, and the public is invited to get a look at the research facility that, in past years, has been the subject of dark rumors.
      The University of Alaska Fairbanks now owns and operates the High-Frequency Active Auroral Research Program and invites the public to an open house Saturday. This is interested visitors' chance to learn about the scientific mission and research at the Gakona facility, which was transferred last year from the U.S. Air Force to UAF.
      UAF officials are hoping for a high turnout.
      "We hope that people will be able to see the actual science of it," said Sue Mitchell, spokesperson for UAF's Geophysical Institute, which operates the facility. "We hope to show people that it is not capable of mind control and not capable of weather control and all the other things it's been accused of."
      HAARP, which opened in the 1990s, is one of the world's few centers for high-power and high-frequency study of the ionosphere, Earth's thin upper atmosphere, which gets its name from the high quantities of ionized atoms and molecules that bounce around it. The ionosphere is important because radio waves used for communication and navigation reflect back to Earth, allowing long-distance, short-wave broadcasting.
      To study the ionosphere and what is happening there, HAARP uses 180 high-frequency antennas spread over 33 acres.
      The antenna field will be available for public tours at the open house, and one of the facility's scientist will be available to explain how it works, Mitchell said.
      Other features include an unmanned aircraft "petting zoo" and various interactive displays about space weather and other subjects, Mitchell said. There will also be an opportunity for visitors to tour UAF permafrost and seismic stations that are not part of HAARP but within walking distance, she said.
      Refreshments will be served, and the event is open for all ages, according to the Geophysical Institute.
      HAARP is a 240-mile drive from Fairbanks and roughly 198 miles from Anchorage.
          A related event is a Friday night public lecture on HAARP, to be held at the Wrangell-St. Elias National Park Visitor Center, about 30 miles away from the facility.
      More info here.
 

Father Jape

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Blijedi čovjek na tragu pervertita.
To je ta nezadrživa napaljenost mladosti.
Dušman u odsustvu Dušmana.

Labudan

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #213 on: 24-09-2016, 18:24:48 »
Пола сагите дрхти!
šta će mi bogatstvo i svecka slava sva kada mora umreti lepa Nirdala

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #214 on: 26-09-2016, 09:07:34 »
Dopao mi se ovaj tekst, ali je istina još banalnija.


http://qz.com/638059/many-scientific-truths-are-in-fact-false/
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Labudan

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #215 on: 18-10-2016, 13:59:32 »
One area in which political beliefs do have an impact is the kinds of scientists that liberals and conservatives are likely to trust. A 2013 study of 798 participants found that conservatives put more faith in scientists involved in economic production – food scientists, industrial chemists and petroleum geologists, for instance – than in scientists involved in areas associated with regulation, such as public health and environmental science. The opposite was true for liberals.

Everyone is subject to this effect. There are studies that suggest it’s stronger for conservatives, but liberals, too, come to mistrust scientific information when it challenges their worldviews. For instance, a 2014 study found that liberals will display the same sort of evidence-ignoring behaviors as their conservative counterparts when faced with arguments that go against their beliefs about policies like gun control.

Other research has similarly found that science denial can run the political spectrum. For instance, another study examined attitudes about climate change, evolution and stem cell research and found that partisan identification was not necessarily a good predictor of how someone will feel about these controversial issues.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/column-science-issues-seem-divide-us-along-party-lines/
šta će mi bogatstvo i svecka slava sva kada mora umreti lepa Nirdala

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #216 on: 30-10-2016, 05:56:01 »
Let researchers try new paths 
 
Quote

The scientific enterprise is stuck in a catch-22. Researchers are charged with advancing promising new questions, but receive support and credit only for revisiting their past work.
For example, while studying the epidemiology of HIV and tuberculosis, one of us (T.O.) realized that many people with these infectious diseases in urban areas also have non-infectious conditions, including hypertension and obesity. Hardly anyone was examining how and why, or investigating strategies for integrated prevention and management. Her proposals to research these topics were not well received by peer reviewers, who commented that she had not asked such questions before.
We, the authors of this Comment, met earlier this year, having been selected by the World Economic Forum as part of a group of scientists under the age of 40 who “play a transformational role in integrating scientific knowledge into society for the public good”. Through hours of discussion, we realized that we share many challenges, despite the recognition we have achieved and the diverse disciplines and geographical regions we represent.
Most striking are the barriers to achieving impact. Our research often led us to questions that had greater potential than our original focus, typically because these new directions encompassed the complexities of society. We realized that changing tack could lead to more important work, but the policies of research funders and institutions consistently discourage such pivots.
 Shackled to the past When reviewers assess grants or academic performance, they focus largely on track records in a particular field. Young scientists, who must focus on developing their careers, are thus discouraged from exploration. Our own experiences provide a glimpse of the well-intentioned forces that can keep researchers from trying other paths (see ‘Four tales of turning’).   New directions: Four tales of turning Young scientists are warned that exploring new ideas could endanger their careers. Here, the authors share the challenges they faced.
Gerardo Adesso: I had expertise in quantum information theory, but was attracted to broader and more fundamental questions at the border between classical and quantum mechanics. These interests got a lukewarm reception in a national funding landscape biased towards applied research. I got funding only from unconventional organizations, such as the Foundational Questions Institute (www.fqxi.org). Soon, I had a series of high-impact publications and was rewarded with a substantial follow-up grant from the European Research Council, along the lines I had previously struggled to find support for.
Rob Knight: When setting up my lab, colleagues advised me to focus on one microbe rather than the ecosystem of gut flora. My work on Salmonella was topical and thought to have excellent potential for federal funding — a sound investment of my start-up funds. One of my first graduate students, Cathy Lozupone, cemented my decision to pivot, against the advice of evaluation committees and senior colleagues. We both knew it was a gamble, but she opted to work on bioinformatics and phylogeny despite having no training in computer science. Her software, UniFrac, has now been cited more than 2,000 times, and microbiome research has become one of the fastest expanding areas of biomedical research.
Tolu Oni: To do urban health research, I needed to explore the field and engage with new sectors of academia, society and policy. I also needed training in spatial analytical tools to better investigate health inequalities and their urban determinants. But my lack of publications in the field made me less competitive for grants. I continued publishing on my infectious-diseases work amid criticism that my new focus was diluting my research record. A faculty position has offered support and flexibility to pursue this chosen focus, but work is slow.
Fabio Sciarrino: Since my PhD, I have worked on the foundations of quantum mechanics and experimental quantum optics. When I sought to use my expertise to develop technology, it was difficult. My goal was to design circuits based on light rather than on electricity; my grant applications on this idea were not funded. Reviewers doubted that the project was feasible. A new PhD student and I took a risk: we conducted a proof-of-principle demonstration of a quantum chip. This was key to the award of a grant from the European Research Council that allowed me to achieve breakthroughs in an area now considered a hot topic (see www.3dquest.eu). This challenge is not new. Physicist-turned-structural biologist Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, who is president of the Royal Society, worked for several years in a job with funding that was contingent on a steady stream of publications. This forced him to ask safe but incremental questions. To pursue what became his Nobel-prizewinning work (on the structure of the ribosome), he moved to another institution where he could ask the questions that interested him, irrespective of the chances for publication. As he describes in his Nobel biography, the decision required an international move and a large pay cut.
For every story like this, there are too many where investigators have made a rational choice not to pursue areas outside their core expertise. We spend so much effort trying to find our way that we risk losing the drive to apply skills to the broader world, and stick instead to the less-fulfilling security of ‘productivity’.
More bold is Eva Alisic, a psychologist and senior research fellow at Monash University Accident Research Centre in Victoria, Australia. Earlier this year, Alisic began studying how refugee children from places such as Syria cope with trauma. Her institute has supported her so far, but this research is not the safest choice for a conventional career trajectory. She told us that she would rather give up an academic career than end this line of study. If we feel that we must leave academia to better contribute to society, the scholarly endeavour is compromised.
 
 Gaining freedom We are not saying that scientists should dabble. Executing a pivot should still require conviction and risk, but the current strictures are too tight. Enabling early-career researchers to change trajectories is necessary to encourage the highest-impact research. Theories of brain plasticity and team productivity support this. Alongside specialization, diverse and varied experiences foster discoveries and promote the decision-making skills that are needed to lead research ( & D. Bavelier Psychol. Aging 23, 692–701; 2008).
Grant programmes do exist in some parts of the world to promote highly innovative projects for promising early- and mid-career researchers. Examples include the European Research Council’s Starting and Consolidator grants and the International Research Scholars programme, which is jointly funded by the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, the Wellcome Trust and the Calouste Gulbenkian Foundation.
   
“Innovation will be stifled by failing to invest in the best emerging scientists.”
These pockets of funding are not enough. In 2015, the US National Institutes of Health (NIH) awarded 78 grants specifically for high-risk research. That same year, it gave out more than 15,000 conventional awards. These are typically granted to applicants with strong preliminary data in fields where they are already recognized as experts. Although it is logical to assess a researcher’s body of work over time, universities, research councils and other funding bodies should create a formal mechanism that explicitly accommodates pivots. If candidates can provide a convincing case for their own credibility and for studying new questions, they should be able to get support.
 Pivot to succeed Two simple changes could make a big difference.
Create a ‘pivot narrative’. Funding applications should give researchers who are in the midst of a shift an opportunity to describe their rationale. The significance and potential of the proposed work should be assessed alongside the researcher’s proven abilities for research in other fields. Alisic, for example, could explain how her work with young people sensitized her to a growing need for evidence-based interventions to treat trauma in children fleeing conflict. A ‘pivot narrative’ would also explain dry spells and the lack of a track record in the proposed area. The simple step of adding a text box to an application form could expand scientists’ willingness to explore, and help assessors to support such exploration.
Revise peer review. There is little to no emphasis on peer-review training. Equipping scientists with skills for more nuanced appraisal will help them to consider varied attributes, particularly how to address complex societal challenges and to evaluate broader interdisciplinary questions. This could eventually change institutional cultures.
The greatest risk is that innovation will be stifled by failing to invest in the best emerging scientists, who are approaching the peak of their creativity.
 

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #217 on: 26-01-2017, 16:09:57 »
Karl Sagan, iz knjige The Demon Haunted World od pre dvadeset godina...



Ugly MF

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #218 on: 26-01-2017, 17:44:01 »
Hehehehe....superstition and darkness.... :)
Do jaja!
Prorok!

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #219 on: 25-02-2017, 06:32:25 »
Most scientists 'can't replicate studies by their peers'
 
Quote

Science is facing a "reproducibility crisis" where more than two-thirds of researchers have tried and failed to reproduce another scientist's experiments, research suggests.
This is frustrating clinicians and drug developers who want solid foundations of pre-clinical research to build upon.
From his lab at the University of Virginia's Centre for Open Science, immunologist Dr Tim Errington runs The Reproducibility Project, which attempted to repeat the findings reported in five landmark cancer studies.
"The idea here is to take a bunch of experiments and to try and do the exact same thing to see if we can get the same results."
You could be forgiven for thinking that should be easy. Experiments are supposed to be replicable.
The authors should have done it themselves before publication, and all you have to do is read the methods section in the paper and follow the instructions.
Sadly nothing, it seems, could be further from the truth. 
After meticulous research involving painstaking attention to detail over several years (the project was launched in 2011), the team was able to confirm only two of the original studies' findings.
Two more proved inconclusive and in the fifth, the team completely failed to replicate the result.
"It's worrying because replication is supposed to be a hallmark of scientific integrity," says Dr Errington.
Concern over the reliability of the results published in scientific literature has been growing for some time.
According to a survey published in the journal Nature last summer, more than 70% of researchers have tried and failed to reproduce another scientist's experiments. 
Marcus Munafo is one of them. Now professor of biological psychology at Bristol University, he almost gave up on a career in science when, as a PhD student, he failed to reproduce a textbook study on anxiety. 
"I had a crisis of confidence. I thought maybe it's me, maybe I didn't run my study well, maybe I'm not cut out to be a scientist."
The problem, it turned out, was not with Marcus Munafo's science, but with the way the scientific literature had been "tidied up" to present a much clearer, more robust outcome.
"What we see in the published literature is a highly curated version of what's actually happened," he says. 
"The trouble is that gives you a rose-tinted view of the evidence because the results that get published tend to be the most interesting, the most exciting, novel, eye-catching, unexpected results. 
"What I think of as high-risk, high-return results."
The reproducibility difficulties are not about fraud, according to Dame Ottoline Leyser, director of the Sainsbury Laboratory at the University of Cambridge.
That would be relatively easy to stamp out. Instead, she says: "It's about a culture that promotes impact over substance, flashy findings over the dull, confirmatory work that most of science is about."
She says it's about the funding bodies that want to secure the biggest bang for their bucks, the peer review journals that vie to publish the most exciting breakthroughs, the institutes and universities that measure success in grants won and papers published and the ambition of the researchers themselves. 
"Everyone has to take a share of the blame," she argues. "The way the system is set up encourages less than optimal outcomes."
For its part, the journal Nature is taking steps to address the problem. 
It's introduced a reproducibility checklist for submitting authors, designed to improve reliability and rigour. 
"Replication is something scientists should be thinking about before they write the paper," says Ritu Dhand, the editorial director at Nature.
"It is a big problem, but it's something the journals can't tackle on their own.  It's going to take a multi-pronged approach involving funders, the institutes, the journals and the researchers."
But we need to be bolder, according to the Edinburgh neuroscientist Prof Malcolm Macleod. 
"The issue of replication goes to the heart of the scientific process."
Writing in the latest edition of Nature, he outlines a new approach to animal studies that calls for independent, statistically rigorous confirmation of a paper's central hypothesis before publication. 
"Without efforts to reproduce the findings of others, we don't know if the facts out there actually represent what's happening in biology or not."
Without knowing whether the published scientific literature is built on solid foundations or sand, he argues, we're wasting both time and money. 
"It could be that we would be much further forward in terms of developing new cures and treatments.  It's a regrettable situation, but I'm afraid that's the situation we find ourselves in."
 

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #220 on: 26-04-2017, 08:34:43 »
Science has outgrown the human mind and its limited capacities



Quote
The duty of man who investigates the writings of scientists, if learning the truth is his goal, is to make himself an enemy of all that he reads and … attack it from every side. He should also suspect himself as he performs his critical examination of it, so that he may avoid falling into either prejudice or leniency.
– Ibn al-Haytham (965-1040 CE)
Science is in the midst of a data crisis. Last year, there were more than 1.2 million new papers published in the biomedical sciences alone, bringing the total number of peer-reviewed biomedical papers to over 26 million. However, the average scientist reads only about 250 papers a year. Meanwhile, the quality of the scientific literature has been in decline. Some recent studies found that the majority of biomedical papers were irreproducible.
The twin challenges of too much quantity and too little quality are rooted in the finite neurological capacity of the human mind. Scientists are deriving hypotheses from a smaller and smaller fraction of our collective knowledge and consequently, more and more, asking the wrong questions, or asking ones that have already been answered. Also, human creativity seems to depend increasingly on the stochasticity of previous experiences – particular life events that allow a researcher to notice something others do not. Although chance has always been a factor in scientific discovery, it is currently playing a much larger role than it should.
One promising strategy to overcome the current crisis is to integrate machines and artificial intelligence in the scientific process. Machines have greater memory and higher computational capacity than the human brain. Automation of the scientific process could greatly increase the rate of discovery. It could even begin another scientific revolution. That huge possibility hinges on an equally huge question: can scientific discovery really be automated?
I believe it can, using an approach that we have known about for centuries. The answer to this question can be found in the work of Sir Francis Bacon, the 17th-century English philosopher and a key progenitor of modern science.
The first reiterations of the scientific method can be traced back many centuries earlier to Muslim thinkers such as Ibn al-Haytham, who emphasised both empiricism and experimentation. However, it was Bacon who first formalised the scientific method and made it a subject of study. In his book Novum Organum (1620), he proposed a model for discovery that is still known as the Baconian method. He argued against syllogistic logic for scientific synthesis, which he considered to be unreliable. Instead, he proposed an approach in which relevant observations about a specific phenomenon are systematically collected, tabulated and objectively analysed using inductive logic to generate generalisable ideas. In his view, truth could be uncovered only when the mind is free from incomplete (and hence false) axioms.
The Baconian method attempted to remove logical bias from the process of observation and conceptualisation, by delineating the steps of scientific synthesis and optimising each one separately. Bacon’s vision was to leverage a community of observers to collect vast amounts of information about nature and tabulate it into a central record accessible to inductive analysis. In Novum Organum, he wrote: ‘Empiricists are like ants; they accumulate and use. Rationalists spin webs like spiders. The best method is that of the bee; it is somewhere in between, taking existing material and using it.’
The Baconian method is rarely used today. It proved too laborious and extravagantly expensive; its technological applications were unclear. However, at the time the formalisation of a scientific method marked a revolutionary advance. Before it, science was metaphysical, accessible only to a few learned men, mostly of noble birth. By rejecting the authority of the ancient Greeks and delineating the steps of discovery, Bacon created a blueprint that would allow anyone, regardless of background, to become a scientist.
Bacon’s insights also revealed an important hidden truth: the discovery process is inherently algorithmic. It is the outcome of a finite number of steps that are repeated until a meaningful result is uncovered. Bacon explicitly used the word ‘machine’ in describing his method. His scientific algorithm has three essential components: first, observations have to be collected and integrated into the total corpus of knowledge. Second, the new observations are used to generate new hypotheses. Third, the hypotheses are tested through carefully designed experiments.
If science is algorithmic, then it must have the potential for automation. This futuristic dream has eluded information and computer scientists for decades, in large part because the three main steps of scientific discovery occupy different planes. Observation is sensual; hypothesis-generation is mental; and experimentation is mechanical. Automating the scientific process will require the effective incorporation of machines in each step, and in all three feeding into each other without friction. Nobody has yet figured out how to do that.
Experimentation has seen the most substantial recent progress. For example, the pharmaceutical industry commonly uses automated high-throughput platforms for drug design. Startups such as Transcriptic and Emerald Cloud Lab, both in California, are building systems to automate almost every physical task that biomedical scientists do. Scientists can submit their experiments online, where they are converted to code and fed into robotic platforms that carry out a battery of biological experiments. These solutions are most relevant to disciplines that require intensive experimentation, such as molecular biology and chemical engineering, but analogous methods can be applied in other data-intensive fields, and even extended to theoretical disciplines.
Automated hypothesis-generation is less advanced, but the work of Don Swanson in the 1980s provided an important step forward. He demonstrated the existence of hidden links between unrelated ideas in the scientific literature; using a simple deductive logical framework, he could connect papers from various fields with no citation overlap. In this way, Swanson was able to hypothesise a novel link between dietary fish oil and Reynaud’s Syndrome without conducting any experiments or being an expert in either field. Other, more recent approaches, such as those of Andrey Rzhetsky at the University of Chicago and Albert-László Barabási at Northeastern University, rely on mathematical modelling and graph theory. They incorporate large datasets, in which knowledge is projected as a network, where nodes are concepts and links are relationships between them. Novel hypotheses would show up as undiscovered links between nodes.
The most challenging step in the automation process is how to collect reliable scientific observations on a large scale. There is currently no central data bank that holds humanity’s total scientific knowledge on an observational level. Natural language-processing has advanced to the point at which it can automatically extract not only relationships but also context from scientific papers. However, major scientific publishers have placed severe restrictions on text-mining. More important, the text of papers is biased towards the scientist’s interpretations (or misconceptions), and it contains synthesised complex concepts and methodologies that are difficult to extract and quantify.
Nevertheless, recent advances in computing and networked databases make the Baconian method practical for the first time in history. And even before scientific discovery can be automated, embracing Bacon’s approach could prove valuable at a time when pure reductionism is reaching the edge of its usefulness.
Human minds simply cannot reconstruct highly complex natural phenomena efficiently enough in the age of big data. A modern Baconian method that incorporates reductionist ideas through data-mining, but then analyses this information through inductive computational models, could transform our understanding of the natural world. Such an approach would enable us to generate novel hypotheses that have higher chances of turning out to be true, to test those hypotheses, and to fill gaps in our knowledge. It would also provide a much-needed reminder of what science is supposed to be: truth-seeking, anti-authoritarian, and limitlessly free.

дејан

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #221 on: 27-07-2017, 11:45:20 »
ево нове веселе будалаштине...

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2017/07/22/predatory-journals-star-wars-sting/#.WXPoKUk8KaM


Quote
A number of so-called scientific journals have accepted a Star Wars-themed spoof paper. The manuscript is an absurd mess of factual errors, plagiarism and movie quotes. I know because I wrote it.

Inspired by previous publishing “stings”, I wanted to test whether ‘predatory‘ journals would publish an obviously absurd paper. So I created a spoof manuscript about “midi-chlorians” – the fictional entities which live inside cells and give Jedi their powers in Star Wars. I filled it with other references to the galaxy far, far away, and submitted it to nine journals under the names of Dr Lucas McGeorge and Dr Annette Kin.
...barcode never lies
FLA

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #222 on: 28-07-2017, 09:55:32 »
ali i autor i i spameri koji su objavili "rad" suštinski veze nemaju.
mislim, naravno da ta vrsta spama zatrpava inbox svakog dana, a neki od njih čak deluju i uverljivo
Quote
Requesting Articles on "Tetanus".
Dear Lilit!
Hope this email finds you well!
We are pleased to announce a Regular Edition on "Tetanus".
At the onset, we cordially invite you to submit a manuscript to the upcoming edition on “Tetanus”. Submission deadline August 2, 2017 and Published Date August 30, 2017
https://www.jscimedcentral.com/Pathology/earlyonline.php
Topics:  Clostridium tetani, a Bacteria, Preventing the Disease; Treatments; Disease Occurs
Sherline Kurt
Editorial Office- Journal of Veterinary Medicine and Research
JSciMed Central
1455 Frazee Road, Suite 570
San Diego, California 92108, USA
Tel: (619)-373-8720
Toll free number: 1-800-762-9856
Email: veterinarymedicine@jscimedcentral.com

ali poenta je da niko ozbiljan to ne shvata ozbiljno. nauka funkcioniše na principu da kad si u određenoj oblasti ti prosto pročitaš najveći broj radova koji su izašli u poslednjih 40-50 godina a znaš i sve te ljude koji su ih napisali (upoznaš ih na kongresima i slušaš diskusije). i znaš ko radi dobre stvari (čiji rezultati su reproducibilni, validni, čija metodologija je crap, čija nije) i onda biraš da li ćeš probati da radiš na taj način ili ćeš da uletiš u rubbish. neki ulete nesvesno, a neki potpuno svesno jer su do nedavno i u srpskom ministarstvu za nauku mislili da su takvi časopisi sasvim ok.
znači, pitanje je kao i uvek šta je tvoja lična motivacija i šta ti je cilj. da li radiš nauku zarad toga da bi rekao parohiji da se baviš naukom ili imaš neki drugi motivacioni faktor.
a spamera će biti uvek, nemoguće ih je izbeći u bilo kom kontekstu.
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Father Jape

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #223 on: 28-07-2017, 10:05:33 »
Da, jedino što se menja je ukupni udeo spamera u čitavoj priči. Ali kao što kaže lilit, taj džinovski, podvodni deo ledenog brega koji samo raste niko ozbiljan i ne uzima u obzir, a uglavnom ga nije ni svestan. 
Blijedi čovjek na tragu pervertita.
To je ta nezadrživa napaljenost mladosti.
Dušman u odsustvu Dušmana.

Labudan

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #224 on: 28-07-2017, 11:16:09 »
Najgenijalnije je što se časopis obraća sa Dear Lilit!
šta će mi bogatstvo i svecka slava sva kada mora umreti lepa Nirdala

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #225 on: 28-07-2017, 12:23:13 »
to lilit je ubačeno zarad sagita okruženja, naravno da je pisalo dear prof. dr. prezime, kako spameri obično adresiraju sve kojima pišu ovakve stvari.

i veruj mi da je neverovatan broj onih koji padaju na te stvari. plus, u srbiji previše onih koji se bave naukom ne znaju razlike između top, standard i običnog časopisa i kako se radi klasifikacija. i još puno drugih horora, al tako je kako je. a tek će biti gore.
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Scordisk

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #226 on: 28-07-2017, 12:35:07 »
nema veze, to je idealna prilika da se i mi sa bečlerom lansiramo u visoke akademske krugove i postanemo dopisni članovi, profesori, ugledni naučnici i ministri :D

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #227 on: 28-07-2017, 12:43:04 »
to su tek horori sa kojima će se buduća vlada države srbije (a i sveta) suočiti kad mi već dugo budemo mrtvi i beli.
i nikad se ne zna, možda i nešto dobro ispadne iz svega, uvek treba biti optimista. :lol:
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Scordisk

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #228 on: 28-07-2017, 12:53:05 »
za preduzetnog čoveka, nema mesta pesimizmu :D nego, pitanje je, da li je autor tog star wars članka uspeo da naplati svoj trud?

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #229 on: 28-07-2017, 13:54:02 »
kako? preko poseta cenjenog bloga? sumnjam.
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Labudan

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #230 on: 28-07-2017, 14:29:41 »
taman sam se ponadao da će mi doći neki Dear Bata mail!

nema veze, to je idealna prilika da se i mi sa bečlerom lansiramo u visoke akademske krugove i postanemo dopisni članovi, profesori, ugledni naučnici i ministri :D

da osnujemo časopis!

šta će mi bogatstvo i svecka slava sva kada mora umreti lepa Nirdala

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #231 on: 28-07-2017, 15:02:07 »
dear today. lol



That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Scordisk

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #232 on: 29-07-2017, 00:14:44 »
taman sam se ponadao da će mi doći neki Dear Bata mail!

nema veze, to je idealna prilika da se i mi sa bečlerom lansiramo u visoke akademske krugove i postanemo dopisni članovi, profesori, ugledni naučnici i ministri :D

da osnujemo časopis!

čuj časopis, daj da osnujemo univerzitet! :D

Ugly MF

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #233 on: 29-07-2017, 00:53:51 »
El' mogu ja tamo da budem profa "Ravnozemljopisa"?

Scordisk

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #234 on: 29-07-2017, 12:31:37 »
Baš sam to hteo da predložim :D

Ti ćeš biti dekan za geografiju, T2 za istoriju, Bata za politikologiju, zosko za veronauku, a Boban će da drži građansko vaspitanje

Аксентије Новаковић

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #235 on: 29-07-2017, 16:10:16 »

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #236 on: 29-07-2017, 16:21:53 »
Ovoj slici je pre mesto na drugom podforumu, recimo na temi stone igre na tabli. Ovde joj nije mesto jer nema veze s naukom, već sa kartaškim igrama.

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #237 on: 30-08-2017, 11:37:39 »
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

Labudan

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #238 on: 30-08-2017, 11:50:52 »
Neoliberali vole prirodne nauke!!! 8-)
šta će mi bogatstvo i svecka slava sva kada mora umreti lepa Nirdala

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #239 on: 30-08-2017, 12:09:43 »
Amerika kad sama sebi kopa rupu kopa i svima ostalima. Čekaj kad kod nas krene cela prblematika studentskih kredita koje otplaćuješ do četrdesete godine... Bio je i ovaj tekst nedavno:


Why Do Republicans Suddenly Hate College So Much?

lilit

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #240 on: 30-08-2017, 14:00:11 »
"ako" kod vas krene, ne "kad". mislim, pesimista sam šta će dotad ostati od srpskih univerziteta, obrazovanja i nauke.
meni je potpuno jasno zašto korporacija teži ovom shitu, al kako postoje ljudi koji opravdavaju neolib sistem obrazovanja, to mi je i dalje enigma.
da bi napredovali (zemlja, grad, država, planeta), obrazovanje, uključujući više obrazovanje, mora biti dostupno svima bez novčanih restrikcija inače smo na duže staze ugasili.
it's elementary.
i ne brinem se za sebe, ja funkcionišem odlično u svakom sistemu, a verovali ili ne, često se setim marksizma :lol:
samo još da vidim kako decu da indoktriniram.  :idea:  :lol:
That’s how it is with people. Nobody cares how it works as long as it works.

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #241 on: 30-08-2017, 14:27:01 »
Charming.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #242 on: 26-10-2017, 05:05:26 »

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #243 on: 26-10-2017, 08:14:30 »
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #244 on: 26-10-2017, 08:33:18 »
Pa piše u tekstu:



Quote
"For the scale that's in your grocery store or bathroom, nothing's going to change," Dr. David Newell of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) said.



scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #245 on: 26-10-2017, 08:38:31 »
Znam za prodavnicu i kupatilo. Pa, čitao sam. Pitam za pijac. Treba da odemo po neko zelje.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #246 on: 27-10-2017, 05:44:10 »
Zelje se, srećom na pijacama kupuje na vezu a ne na meru, tako da nisi morao da lupaš glavu  :lol: :lol:  A kad smo već kod merenja:
 
 Scientists weigh life
 :? :?

scallop

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #247 on: 27-10-2017, 10:07:19 »
Merenje: tačnost, pouzdanost, reprodukcija, greška. Neizostavno i sve to za onog ko meri. :shock:
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #248 on: 18-12-2017, 09:05:31 »

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #249 on: 17-04-2018, 07:51:07 »

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #250 on: 29-09-2019, 07:26:22 »
Pošto je Vice u pitanju, naslove je malo senzacionalistički ali priča jeste interesantna.
 
 Number Theorist Fears All Published Math Is Wrong
 
Quote

 New proofs by professional mathematicians tend to rely on a whole host of prior results that have already been published and understood. But Buzzard says there are many cases where the prior proofs used to build new proofs are clearly not understood. For example, there are notable papers that openly cite unpublished work. This worries Buzzard.
 
 “I’m suddenly concerned that all of published math is wrong because mathematicians are not checking the details, and I’ve seen them wrong before,” Buzzard told Motherboard while he was attending the 10th Interactive Theorem Proving conference in Portland, Oregon, where he gave the opening talk.
  "I think there is a non-zero chance that some of our great castles are built on sand," Buzzard wrote in a slide presentation. "But I think it's small."
 

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #251 on: 22-11-2019, 10:47:03 »
https://www.thecut.com/2017/04/the-science-march-sparked-a-big-argument-about-objectivity.html

Jesse Singal je novinar i daleko od toga da je u svemu i uveku pravu ali ovo je interesantan mada više od dve godine star pregled nekih aktuelnih stremljenja na, jelte, zapadu.



mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #254 on: 12-04-2022, 16:51:25 »

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #255 on: 05-01-2023, 14:50:14 »
Applying Science to SCAM: A Brief Summary of the Past Thirty Years

SCAM je akronim za "so called alternative medicine".

mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #256 on: 01-05-2023, 14:14:12 »
Satreće nas leva polovina mozga. Bolje da pustimo žene da vladaju, kod njih to nije toliko izraženo.

https://unherd.com/2023/05/left-brain-thinking-will-destroy-civilisation/

Labudan

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #257 on: 01-05-2023, 14:47:16 »
Neoliberalizam.
šta će mi bogatstvo i svecka slava sva kada mora umreti lepa Nirdala

džin tonik

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #258 on: 01-05-2023, 15:54:31 »
na slicnu pomisao moze doci samo covjek u zemlji gdje zena koja "vlada" lici na muskarca. pogledajte jugoslavensku ministricu kulture i raspodjele plijena. i drhtite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C0l7DhJ2AI


mac

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #259 on: 19-06-2023, 12:53:48 »
Ova popularizatorka nauke na vrlo zabavan način ukazuje na neke ljudske slabosti, čak i kad su ti ljudi naučnici. Rešio sam da podelim kada je u jednom trenutku spomenula "Brony situation". Možda nije ni gledala Pulp Fiction, ali meni je ispalo urnebesno. Vama možda neće. Uzgred, video traje 50 minuta.

Gell-Mann Amnesia and Michio Kaku

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #260 on: 11-07-2023, 13:08:16 »

Meho Krljic

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Re: Ideologija Nauke?
« Reply #261 on: 10-11-2023, 05:54:09 »