Author Topic: Alternativna istorija  (Read 8892 times)

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Melkor

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Alternativna istorija
« on: 25-02-2010, 18:25:32 »
Mislim (posle uzaludnog trazenja) da nemamo nijedan topik posvecen ovom (pod)/zanru/pravcu/vrsti/rodu koji je daleko od irelevantnog. E, sad, naravno da nemam nikakvo misljenje o datoj temi kojim bih vas smarao, vec samo dajem link ka novom, 5. broju "fanzina" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login koji je posvecen alternativnoj istoriji.
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

Melkor

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #1 on: 26-02-2010, 02:21:50 »
15th century

    * 1490. Tirant lo Blanch by Joanot Martorell, a knight from Brittany stops the Turks from taking Constantinople.

19th century

    * 1845. P.'s Correspondence by Nathaniel Hawthorne, a New Englander is treated as a madman because of being able to perceive a different a reality in which long-dead famous people are still alive (though not necessarily well) in 1845: the poets Burns, Byron, Shelley, and Keats, the actor Edmund Kean, the British politician George Canning and even Napoleon Bonaparte.[1]
    * 1895. Aristopia by Castello Holford, the earliest settlers in Virginia discover a reef made of solid gold and are able to build a Utopian society in North America.

1910s

    * 1913. Der Tunnel by Bernhard Kellermann, an idealistic engineer, wants to build a tunnel at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean connecting America with Europe.

1930s

    * 1931. If It Had Happened Otherwise edited by J. C. Squire, a collection of alternate history essays.
    * 1935. It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis, Berzelius "Buzz" Windrip is elected President of the United States on a populist platform, which will eventually turn into fascism.
    * 1939. Lest Darkness Fall by L. Sprague de Camp, an American archaeologist is transported to 6th century Rome (AD 535).

1950s

    * 1952. The Sound of His Horn by John William Wall, a British naval lieutenant awakens in a Nazi controlled world 102 years on from World War II.
    * 1953. Bring the Jubilee by Ward Moore, the South was not defeated in the American Civil War because it won the Battle of Gettysburg.

1960s

    * 1962. The Man in the High Castle by Philip K. Dick, set in a world where the Axis powers won World War II.
    * 1966. The Gate of Time by Philip José Farmer, an Iroquois combat pilot finds himself in a world where the New World is underwater and Native Americans settled in Eastern Europe.
    * 1968. The Last Starship from Earth by John Boyd, Jesus Christ became a revolutionary agitator and assembles an army to overthrow the Roman Empire, and established a theocracy that has lasted until the twentieth century.
    * 1968. Pavane by Keith Roberts, Queen Elizabeth I of England was assassinated, and in the ensuing disorder, the Spanish Armada was successful in suppressing Protestantism.
    * 1969. The Bomb That Failed (British, The Last Year of the Old World) by Ronald W. Clark, The failure of the Trinity test in June 1945 leads to an American invasion of Japan.
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

Melkor

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #2 on: 26-02-2010, 02:22:27 »
1970s

    * 1970. All Evil Shed Away by Archie Roy, Due to the assassination of Winston Churchill in 1940, Nazi Germany wins World War II and is locked in a cold war with the United States.
    * 1971. Lighter than a Feather by David Westheimer, The Americans invade Japan in November 1945 as part of Operation Downfall.
    * 1972. The Iron Dream by Norman Spinrad, Adolf Hitler emigrates from Germany to America and used his modest artistic skills to become first a pulp-SF illustrator and later a science fiction writer.
    * 1972. Tunnel Through the Deeps by Harry Harrison, Moors won the battle of Navas de Tolosa on July 16, 1212 on the Iberian peninsula, John Cabot discovered America, and George Washington was shot as a traitor.
    * 1973. For Want of a Nail by Robert N. Sobel, the American Revolution failed and the British colonies become the Confederation of North America (CNA), while the defeated rebels go into exile in Spanish Tejas, eventually founding the United States of Mexico (USM).
    * 1973. The Ultimate Solution by Eric Norden, a world resulting from a total Nazi and Imperial Japanese victory in World War II and partition of the world between them.
    * 1974. Das Königsprojekt by Carl Amery, the Roman Catholic church attempts to restore the House of Stuart to the English throne by altering history through the use of a time machine invented by Leonardo da Vinci.
    * 1976. The Alteration by Kingsley Amis, Martin Luther, rather than beginning the Protestant Reformation, became pope.
    * 1978. And Having Writ… by Donald R. Bensen, four aliens arrive on Earth in 1908 and try to advance human technology so they could return home.
    * 1978. Gloriana by Michael Moorcock, Queen Gloriana rules over "Albion", an alternative British Empire that rules over America and Asia.
    * 1978. SS-GB by Len Deighton, is a detective novel set in 1941 Britain in which the Germans have successfully occupied the country.

1980s

    * 1980 The Divide by William Overgard, a novel set in 1976, thirty years after Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan have defeated the United States during World War II
    * 1983. The Burning Mountain: A Novel of the Invasion of Japan by Alfred Coppel, during World War II, a lightning strike at the Trinity test postpones deployment of the atomic bomb, forcing the U.S. to invade Japan.
    * 1983. The Dragon Waiting: A Masque of History by John M. Ford, fantasy alternate history combining vampires, the Medicis, and the convoluted English politics surrounding Edward IV and Richard III.
    * 1983. A Rebel in Time by Harry Harrison, a racist colonel wants to change history by helping the CSA win the American Civil War.
    * 1983. Trinity's Child by William Prochnau, depicts a nuclear war waged between the United States of America and the Soviet Union.
    * 1984. The Bush Soldiers by John Hooker, the Japanese have successfully conquered and occupied most of the coastal fringe of Australia.
    * 1984. West of Eden by Harry Harrison, the asteroid that struck Earth 65 million years ago causing the mass extinction level event which wiped-out most of the reptiloids never happened.
    * 1985. The Proteus Operation by James P. Hogan, a group of military commandos, diplomats, and scientists travel back to 1939. They try to prevent the Axis Powers from winning World War II.
    * 1986. Watchmen by Alan Moore, is set in an alternate United States that not only has costumed adventurers but also contains other alternate history elements including an American "victory" in the Vietnam War and Richard Nixon serving five terms as president.
    * 1987. Agent of Byzantium by Harry Turtledove Imperial Byzantine special agent Basil Argyros is sent on various missions in an alternate universe where Muhammad became a Christian saint.
    * 1987. Budspy by David Dvorkin, The assassination of Adolf Hitler by a group of conspirators leads to a Germany that dominates much of the world by the 1980s.
    * 1988. Alternities by Michael P. Kube-McDowell's[2]
    * 1988. The Armor of Light by Melissa Scott and Lisa A. Barnett, in which Sir Philip Sidney and Christopher Marlowe have survived their historical deaths to battle witchcraft in the courts of Elizabeth I and James VI.
    * 1988. A Different Flesh by Harry Turtledove, the ancestors of the Native Americans never crossed into the New World, only Homo erectus.
    * 1988. Fire on the Mountain by Terry Bisson, John Brown succeeded in his raid on Harpers Ferry and touched off a slave rebellion in 1859
    * 1988. Gray Victory by Robert Skimin, taking place in an alternate 1866 where the Confederacy won its independence and has placed Jeb Stuart on trial for losing the Battle of Gettysburg.
    * 1988. The New Dinosaurs: An Alternative Evolution by Dougal Dixon, a book chronicling the world had the dinosaurs not died out 65 million years ago but instead had kept the mammals in small rodent-like forms.
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

Melkor

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #3 on: 26-02-2010, 02:22:56 »
1990s

    * 1990. The Difference Engine by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling, Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine takes on the roles of modern computers a century early.
    * 1990. The World Next Door by Brad Ferguson, people from a world that experienced nuclear war in 1962 interacts with people from a world that did not.
    * 1990. A World of Difference by Harry Turtledove, the 4th planet of our solar system, named Minerva instead of Mars, is larger and contains intelligent alien life.
    * 1992. Fatherland by Robert Harris, set in the 1960s in a Germany which won World War II.
    * 1992. The Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove, the Confederate Army is supplied with AK-47s by early-21st century white supremacist South African time-travelers.
    * 1992. Konpeki no Kantai by Yoshio Aramaki. Japan becomes a stronger naval power thanks to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto who appears several years in the past despite dying in World War II. Later adapted into an OVA series.
    * 1993. Anti-Ice by Stephen Baxter, explosive scientific discovery made in the 1850s advances technology.
    * 1993. Aztec Century by Christopher Evans, Cortez changed sides at the onset of the Conquistador era in the early sixteenth century, leading to the repulsion of Spanish invasion and occupation of Central America.
    * 1993. Down in the Bottomlands by Harry Turtledove, at the end of the Miocene period, the Mediterranean stays dry to the present day.
    * 1993. Elvissey by Jack Womack, a dystopian 2033 where a Machiavellian multinational corporation has plans for world domination.
    * 1995. 1901 by Robert Conroy, depicts a hypothetical war between Germany and the United States at the start of William McKinley's second term as President.
    * 1995. 1945 by Newt Gingrich and William R. Forstchen, Germans perfected long-range jet aircraft by the end of World War II and conducted successful raids in North America against the US nuclear program.
    * 1995. December 7, 1941: A Different Path by David L. Alley, Instead of bombing Pearl Harbor, the Japanese join Germany in attacking the Soviet Union.
    * 1995. The Two Georges by Harry Turtledove and Richard Dreyfuss, King George III of Great Britain and George Washington reached a settlement where the 13 Colonies remained within the British Empire with increased autonomy and virtually all of their grievances redressed.
    * 1996. Attentatet i Pålsjö skog by Hans Alfredson, Swedish communists blow up a German train passing through Sweden, killing Eva Braun who was on board.
    * 1996. Celestial Matters by Richard Garfinkle, the physics of this world and its surrounding cosmos are based on the physics of Aristotle and ancient Chinese Taoist alchemy.
    * 1996. Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus by Orson Scott Card, in which scientists from the future travel back to the 15th century to prevent the European colonization of the Americas.
    * 1996. Voyage by Stephen Baxter. The United States conducts a Mars landing in 1986 as a result of inspiration by John F. Kennedy, who survived the assassination attempt on him in 1963.
    * 1997. Back in the USSA by Eugene Byrne and Kim Newman, the United States experienced a communist revolution in 1917 and became a communist superpower, where Russia did not.
    * 1997. K is for Killing by Daniel Easterman, Charles Lindbergh is elected president rather than Franklin Delano Roosevelt and a fascist organization calling itself the Amero-Aryan Alliance is brought to power and turns the country into a police state, complete with slavery, concentration camps, and ghettos.
    * 1997. Making History by Stephen Fry, set in a parallel world in which Adolf Hitler was never conceived, let alone born.
    * 1999. Battle Royale by Koushun Takami. Japan is a police state that terrorizes the populace by forcing children to kill each other in something called "The Program."
    * 1999. Resurrection Day by Brendan DuBois, where the Cuban Missile Crisis ended in a brief nuclear exchange between the U.S. and Soviet Union that wiped out several cities and has led to America being under military rule.
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

Melkor

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #4 on: 26-02-2010, 02:23:27 »
2000s

    * 2000. Fox on the Rhine by Douglas Niles and Michael Dobson, Heinrich Himmler takes over as leader after Hitler is assassinated in 1944 and arranges a cease-fire with the Soviet Union to free German forces. He then appoints Erwin Rommel to command over the German forces in Europe.
          o Fox at the Front (2003)
    * 2001. After Dachau by Daniel Quinn, Germany wins World War II and eventually all non-whites are killed off.
    * 2001. The Children's War by J.N. Stroyar, in World War II Germany does not attack the Soviet Union and develops a nuclear weapons program.
          o A Change of Regime (2004)
    * 2001. The Haunting of Alaizabel Cray by Chris Wooding, Victorian London is overrun by the wych-kin, demonic creatures that have rendered the city uninhabitable south of the river, and which stalk the streets after dark.
    * 2002. Ice by Shane Johnson, the Apollo 19 mission suffers a major system failure, forcing its crew to strike out on their own.
    * 2002. The Peshawar Lancers by S. M. Stirling, in 1878 a meteor shower devastates Europe and North America forcing the European empires to relocate their population to their colonies.
    * 2002. Ruled Britannia by Harry Turtledove, the Spanish Armada conquers England and forces Shakespeare to write a play about Philip II. At the same time he is secretly writing a play for the English underground resistance.
    * 2002. The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson, the Black Death of the 14th century kills 99% of the people in Europe and over the next seven centuries, India, China and the Islamic world come to dominate the planet.
    * 2003. Collaborator by Murray Davies, set in a Nazi occupied Great Britain centering around a former POW and life in occupied Britain.
    * 2003. Conquistador by S.M. Stirling, an inter-dimensional gateway is discovered in California, which gives access to an alternate Earth in which the empire of Alexander the Great flourishes, and where Europeans never discovered America.
    * 2003. In the Presence of Mine Enemies by Harry Turtledove, a family of secret Jews hide in Berlin two or three generations after a Nazi victory in World War II.
    * 2003. Roma Eterna by Robert Silverberg, the Red Sea did not part before Moses and as a result, the Roman Empire grew and prospered without the influence of Christianity.
    * 2004. Airborn by Kenneth Oppel, the airplane is never invented and instead airships are used for travel.
    * 2004. The Plot Against America by Philip Roth, Charles Lindbergh is elected President of the United States in 1940 and collaborates with Nazi Germany.
    * 2006. 1862 by Robert Conroy, depicts what might have happened if England had entered the American Civil War on the side of the Confederacy due to the RMS Trent incident.
    * 2006. Half Life by Shelley Jackson, the atomic bomb resulted in a genetic preponderance of conjoined twins, who eventually become a minority subculture.
    * 2007. 1945 by Robert Conroy, depicts what could have happened if the United States had to invade Japan in World War II.
    * 2007. Ice by Jacek Dukaj, the First World War never occurred and Poland is still under Russian rule.
    * 2007. Mainspring by Jay Lake, a young clockmaker's apprentice, who is visited by the Archangel Gabriel is told that he must take the Key Perilous and rewind the Mainspring of the Earth.
    * 2007. Russian Amerika by Stoney Compton, Alaska is still owned by Russia.
    * 2007. The Yiddish Policemen's Union by Michael Chabon, during World War II, a temporary Yiddish-speaking settlement for Jewish refugees was established in Alaska in 1941.
    * 2008. The Execution Channel by Ken MacLeod, Al Gore is elected president in 2000 and the 9/11 attacks involved different targets.
    * 2008. The Man With the Iron Heart by Harry Turtledove, a German insurgency at the end of World War II.
    * 2008. Without Warning by John Birmingham, On the eve of the Iraq War in March 2003, an energy field appears in North America, wiping out all human and animal life within it.
    * 2009. 1942 by Robert Conroy, A third wave of airstrikes on Pearl Harbor forces the American fleet to abandon the base, opening up the Hawaiian islands to Japanese invasion.
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

Nightflier

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #5 on: 26-02-2010, 06:56:38 »
Ima tu nekoliko propuštenih serijala ili romana, koliko vidim. Na desetine iz pera Harija Tartldava, ali i serijali S. M. Stirlinga, Erika Flinta - koji je sada užasno bitan pisac alternativne istorije - Elizabet Ber, Grega Kiza... sve zavisi kako ćemo definisati alternativnu istoriju. Da li se samo jedna istorijska činjenica promenila, na primer socijalizam ili nacizam pojavio u Americi a ne u Evropi, ili su vanzemaljci sleteli usred Drugog svetskog rata?
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Melkor

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #6 on: 26-02-2010, 12:58:37 »
Nedostaju sve serije, ovo bi bili samo pojedinacni romani, mislim. I da, gledajuci te liste (sa wikipedije) mogli bi da povedemo raspravu o definisanju posto oni i steampunk recimo ili Newmanog Drakulu racunaju u alt istoriju sto, po meni, nikako ne stoji. I Turtldavovi vanzemaljci su mi sumnjivi  xfaga
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

Nightflier

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #7 on: 26-02-2010, 13:30:54 »
Hteo sam ja da imamo jedno predavanje o alternativnoj istoriji, baš zato što tu ima svega i svačega. Meni se čini da bi alternativna istorija trebalo da bude samo ono gde se polazi od pretpostavke da su se neki istorijski događaji odigrali drugačije. Mada tu imamo dilemu šta ćemo s istorijskim događajima koji su se promenili zbog posetioca iz budućnosti, recimo.
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scallop

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #8 on: 26-02-2010, 15:31:35 »
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Mada tu imamo dilemu šta ćemo s istorijskim događajima koji su se promenili zbog posetioca iz budućnosti, recimo.

Nemate dilemu. To je - vremenski paradoks.
Možda ste vi u pravu, ali se ja sa time ne slažem.

mac

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #9 on: 26-02-2010, 16:31:06 »
Nema tu paradoksa, evo upravo sam smislio objašnjenje (koje je, dovraga, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login) koje omogućuje putovanje kroz vreme bez stvaranja novih vremenskih tokova. Kad uključiš vremensku mašinu stvara se "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login" koji relativizuje čitav vremenski period od vremena A (odredišta) do vremena B (polazišta). Čitav vremenski period je u nedefinisanom stanju sve dok se ne utvrdi da li je došlo ili nije došlo do paradoksa. To se utvrđuje u trenutku AB (čitav vremenski opseg postaje jedan trenutak za potrebe utvrđivanja postojanja paradoksa). Sve paradoksalne situacije nestaju same po sebi, a isplivava onaj novi vremenski opseg koji nema ni jedan paradoks. Krajnji rezultat može biti ili da je vreme izmenjeno, ili da nije. Ako je rezultat taj da se vreme nije izmenilo sve što subjekat vidi je da se mašina uključila i isključila, a da se subjekat nije ni makao. Ako je rezultat taj da je vreme izmenjeno, onda se po isključivanju vremenske mašine novi subjekat nalazi u novoj stvarnosti sa sećanjima na novo prethodno vreme.

Ako je recimo neko napravio vremensku mašinu samo da bi ubio Hitlera, onda će se po uključivanju vremenske mašine desiti jedna od tri stvari: ili se neće desiti ništa (jer da je uspeo u atentatu ne bi ni razmišljao o pravljenju vremenske mašine), ili bi otišao u prošlost i propao u atentatu, ili bi promenio prošlost (i sebe) na takav način da je neko ipak napravio vremensku mašinu i upotrebio je. Dakle kad subjekat krene iz vremena B može da se desi da nešto drugo stigne u vreme A, i to nešto drugo je u skladu sa novoformiranim vremenom, i opet nema paradoksa.

scallop

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #10 on: 26-02-2010, 17:22:19 »
Auh, koliko vike niokošta! Ovo "argumentovano" trtljanje na vikipediji je arčenje vremena. Vremenski paradoks je hipoteza i svi uspešni literarni pokušaji pokazuju da je nemoguć. Znači, može da se putuje unazad kroz vreme radi neke intervencije, ali intervencija mora da bude neuspešna. Uspešna intervencija u vremenu (što se mene tiče) uvodi u igru paralelne univerzume. Ako do intervencije dođe kreira se novi, paralelni univerzum. U njemu je izmenjeni događaj realan. Istovremeno, postoji i prethodni jer njega niko nije izmenio. Tu sam ja stigao do teorije struna koja dobro služi u kreiranju uspešnog vremenskog paradoksa i paralelnih univerzuma. Čak je vrlo zgodno posmatrati univerzum kao snop paralelnih univerzuma u kome se može prelaziti iz jednog u drugi, a opstaje najrealnija varijanta dok se nepozdane niti kidaju.

Sa teorijom struna sam se malo zakačio u kratkom romanu "Zemlja za dobre ljude", sa paralelnim univerzumima u više priča iz ciklusa o Svemirskim Ciganima, a sa neuspelom intervencijom u vremenu u romanu "Grbovnik".

Prema tome, alternativna istorija nije vremenski paradoks - priča počinje u uslovima izmenjenog događaja, a ne kako je događaj izmenjen i šta onda biva. Nema tačke A, samo tačka B. Voleo bih kad bi naši teoretičari SF-a uzeli u obzir i moj skromni doprinos iako nije napisan na engleskom jeziku.
Možda ste vi u pravu, ali se ja sa time ne slažem.

mac

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #11 on: 26-02-2010, 18:20:08 »
Da nije obrnuto, nema tačke B, samo tačka A? Tačka A (odredište) je pre tačke B (polazište). Događaji su izmenjeni počevši od tačke A.

Ideju sa novim vremenskim tokom video sam u "Vremenskom pejzažu", i tada mi je delovala genijalno. Ali, glavni zaključak je onda da se sopstvena prošlost ne može izmeniti. Teško je onda održavati literarni mit o putovanju kroz vreme, ako je to putovanje jalovo (možeš da imaš samo jedan takav roman, a ostali su obično ponavljanje). Moja ideja o kvantnoj superpoziciji vremena™ mi se više sviđa, potentnija je, i više je filipdikovska.

Nightflier

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #12 on: 26-02-2010, 18:24:16 »
U savremenom sfu trenutno je dominantna teorija novih stvarnosti, pa neretko jedan događaj stvara više novih stvarnosti - kao kod Flinta ili Stirlinga - a događaje u njima prate odvojeni serijali koji se možda negde dodiruju, a možda i ne.
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mac

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #13 on: 26-02-2010, 18:35:41 »
Okej, ono što je meni jalovo drugima možda nije. Ti drugi su iz mog ugla posmatranja ljubitelji fentezija, čak i kad je taj fentezi zamaskiran stimpankom, alternativnom istorijom, ili hard kor SF operom.

scallop

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #14 on: 26-02-2010, 18:42:00 »
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Da nije obrnuto, nema tačke B, samo tačka A? Tačka A (odredište) je pre tačke B (polazište). Događaji su izmenjeni počevši od tačke A.

Ideju sa novim vremenskim tokom video sam u "Vremenskom pejzažu", i tada mi je delovala genijalno. Ali, glavni zaključak je onda da se sopstvena prošlost ne može izmeniti. Teško je onda održavati literarni mit o putovanju kroz vreme, ako je to putovanje jalovo (možeš da imaš samo jedan takav roman, a ostali su obično ponavljanje). Moja ideja o kvantnoj superpoziciji vremena™ mi se više sviđa, potentnija je, i više je filipdikovska.

1. Možeš ti A zvati B, a opet će A mirisati.

Da, sopstvena ili bilo čija prošlost se ne može izmeniti. Osim po teoriji Velikog Brata. Jalovo putovanje kroz vreme se itekako dobro drži. Ne mogu da nabrojim gde je sve upotrebljeno. Plodno putovanje kroz vreme je uvek bio jalov pokušaj. A što se tiče kvantne superpozicije vremena™ važi pravilo pod 1. Kao i za teoriju struna™.

Nightflieru želim da malo prostudira moj SF™. Jadno je pabirčiti po engleskom jeziku.
Možda ste vi u pravu, ali se ja sa time ne slažem.

Nightflier

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #15 on: 26-02-2010, 19:14:38 »
Čim se budeš probio, bacam se na čitanje. Nemam ja vremena da čitam tamo neku mlađariju koja se tek sad predstavlja publici.  :)
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scallop

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #16 on: 26-02-2010, 22:39:02 »
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Čim se budeš probio, bacam se na čitanje. Nemam ja vremena da čitam tamo neku mlađariju koja se tek sad predstavlja publici.  :)

Kako da se probijem kad nemam promociju od 2008. naovamo. Ni na homepage sajta ZS nema moje knjige u izlogu Tardisa. Ja sam najanonimniji poznati pisac nepoznatih knjiga. :cry:
Možda ste vi u pravu, ali se ja sa time ne slažem.

Nightflier

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #17 on: 26-02-2010, 23:55:22 »
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Čim se budeš probio, bacam se na čitanje. Nemam ja vremena da čitam tamo neku mlađariju koja se tek sad predstavlja publici.  :)

Kako da se probijem kad nemam promociju od 2008. naovamo. Ni na homepage sajta ZS nema moje knjige u izlogu Tardisa. Ja sam najanonimniji poznati pisac nepoznatih knjiga. :cry:

To ti je problem svih mladih koji hoće da se afirmišu... Bar znaš da si mlad. I to je nešto.
Na vuka vika a lisice meso vuku.
Better to rule in Hell than serve in McDonald's.
Always an even trade.
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Boban

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #18 on: 26-02-2010, 23:56:04 »
tjah... moj previd; ispraviću.
Trebalo je da ide ova fotka dole, ali sam zbog odbleska odabrao onu drugu, bez provere verujući da je u pitanju ista postavka u izlogu.

Put ćemo naći ili ćemo ga napraviti.

scallop

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #19 on: 27-02-2010, 01:38:42 »
Pa si stavio onu drugu punu Skrobonjinih izdanja... Kao da će to da te izvadi kod Gorana.
Možda ste vi u pravu, ali se ja sa time ne slažem.

Boban

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #20 on: 27-02-2010, 01:52:18 »
Postoji prirodno stanje tog izloga i veštačko koje sam ja izazvao.
Sada je sve kako ja mislim da treba da bude.
Put ćemo naći ili ćemo ga napraviti.

Melkor

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #21 on: 27-02-2010, 03:52:04 »
scalope, ti si, u stvari, video alternativnu istoriju tog izloga. U nekoj stvarnosti taj izlog jos uvek postoji i masa navaljuje da kupuje knjige ko kupus da im besplatno dele; u nekoj trecoj izlog je polomljen udarnim talasom teroristicke paklene naprave vizigotskog pokreta otpora, ali ti, uostalom, ne bi ni bio u stanju da razumes jezik kojim su te knjige napisane. U nekoj... i tako dalje.
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

Milosh

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #22 on: 27-02-2010, 03:57:32 »
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scalope, ti si, u stvari, video alternativnu istoriju tog izloga. U nekoj stvarnosti taj izlog jos uvek postoji i masa navaljuje da kupuje knjige ko kupus da im besplatno dele; u nekoj trecoj izlog je polomljen udarnim talasom teroristicke paklene naprave vizigotskog pokreta otpora, ali ti, uostalom, ne bi ni bio u stanju da razumes jezik kojim su te knjige napisane. U nekoj... i tako dalje.

:!:

...a u nekoj četvrtoj varijanti horde fanova kupuju Oko za drugi svet, koje postaje bestseler, što, pak, dovodi do sličnih posledica kao u filmu In the Mouth of Madness!
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote: "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part."

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scallop

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #23 on: 27-02-2010, 04:59:20 »
Biće i te navale, samo što nije.

A sad odo u jednu od tih knjižara da ponudim espap sa današnje rasprodaje. Ovde u Americi ima toliko nepoznatih pisaca da mi je odma' bilo lakše kad sam video tu gomilu koja košta dolar ili dva.
Možda ste vi u pravu, ali se ja sa time ne slažem.

Boban

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #24 on: 27-02-2010, 11:31:51 »
Amerika je toliko veća od Srbije da je prirodno da svega ima mnogo više.
Put ćemo naći ili ćemo ga napraviti.

scallop

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #25 on: 27-02-2010, 16:05:07 »
Velika Amerika ima dovoljno prostora i za alternativnu istoriju. Mada tamo Poslednji Srbin ima samo jednu ispostavu i to u Vajomingu. Nepravda, brate. I u Crnoj Gori ima jedna! I u Paragvaju...

Mene više brine što ovi naši mudraci ne znaju razliku između alternativne istorije i vremenskog paradoksa. Ajde što ovi čitači na engleskom ne znaju, oni čitaju samo "radnju knjige", ali da ne zna Mac, biće iz mog tehničkog obora... U frci da patentira svoju zamisao odma' se dofatio ™ TM TM

Spojiš dva teška izraza - kvant i superpozicija - i evo novuma! Pa tako se drma svaki atom i nigde nam nije utekao u vremenu. Sad je tu, a sad - nije. Malo olovo malo radijum... Novum je danas pokriće za priču, a ne obrnuto. Napiši priču...
Možda ste vi u pravu, ali se ja sa time ne slažem.

mac

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #26 on: 27-02-2010, 16:22:32 »
Kao što u mojoj TM ideji ne postoji paradoks pri putovanju kroz vreme, tako ni alternativna istorija ne može da bude posledica putovanja kroz vreme. Postoji samo jedna istorija (u jednom trenutku), a alternativa nema. Ne postoji ono što se desilo "pre", u sličnom smislu u kom "pre" ne postoji u izrazu "pre nastanka svemira". Ja se zapravo nisam osvrtao na temu same alternativne istorije, nego na pitanje "šta ćemo s istorijskim događajima koji su se promenili zbog posetioca iz budućnosti", i odgovora "to je vremenski paradoks". Nema paradoksa. Nema istorije.

Inače You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login već postoji kao fundamentalni pojam kvantne fizike, i novum nije u njoj, nego u primeni tog pojma na vremenski interval. Priznajem da je izraz "kvantna superpozicija vremena™" malo rogobatan, ali smislite vi bolji izraz. Preduslov je da prvo shvatite šta sam hteo da kažem :-)


scallop

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #27 on: 27-02-2010, 17:12:14 »
Ma, da, ja sam toliko tupav da ne mogu da shvatim šta bi mogao jedan kolega da izmašta! To što si ti skonto je odavno rasprodato. Ni crtani filmovi ne koriste. Ako si posmatrao ili čitao bilo šta iz prostora alternativne istorije ili vremenskog paradoksa, samo čitalac zna za promenu. Samo u glupim SF pričama junak koji je izmenio događaje - odahne. Ono, kao gledaju fotografiju i ako se fotografija promeni promenila se i istorija. To je za bioskop! Knjiga to ne trpi. Ili, ne trpe moji rukopisi i moj čitalački ukus.

Ja sam stavio primedbu na pitanje "šta ćemo sa pričama u kojima je istorija izmenjena posetom iz budućnosti?" E, pa to spada u priče koje se bave vremenskim paradoksom (što ne znači da taj paradoks postoji, već da je tematska odrednica novuma). Znači - nešto se odigralo drugačije - alternativna istorija; neko je promenio događaj - vremenski paradoks. Capishe?

Uostalom, šta mi to treba (što bi rekao Boban)? Da se majem sa teorijskim fijokama? Šta ću, uvek me neko neobavešten iznervira.
Možda ste vi u pravu, ali se ja sa time ne slažem.

mac

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #28 on: 27-02-2010, 17:19:01 »
Capisco :-)

Nightflier

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #29 on: 30-08-2010, 12:19:54 »
Prenosim temu sa jednog stranog foruma na kojem učestvujem već nekoliko godina: 100 odluka koje bi dovele do alternativne istorije: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Na vuka vika a lisice meso vuku.
Better to rule in Hell than serve in McDonald's.
Always an even trade.
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Oroluin

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #30 on: 28-09-2010, 09:31:27 »
Ne znam zasto je Melkor poceo temu time da ne bi smarao svojim misljenjem. Upravo slusam razgovor dve koleginice o decjim imenima i ne znam sta bi vise smorilo. Ipak je dobro sto je u nastavku neko rekao neko misljenje. A lista na pocetku je zanimljiva, recimo ono gde je Adolf postao pulp pisac :)
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Melkor

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #31 on: 28-09-2010, 11:31:11 »
Ma to je samo stilska figura jedno vreme jako popularna na ovom forumu  ;)
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

Oroluin

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #32 on: 28-09-2010, 11:48:29 »
:)
Pogledao onaj spisak od 100, ima zanimljiv alter pričica, da ne navodim favorite.
Evo mojih alternativnih istorija, tri pa jedna:
1. Dinastija Ming nije prekinula ekspanzionističku politiku i prekomorske ekspedicije. Kineske kolonije se prostiru od Kalifornije do Zapadne Afrike, uticaj još dalje.
2. Kijevski knez je prihvatio konverziju na judaizam i formirao Evroazijsku federaciju sa hazarskom braćom po veri. (To bi se "svidelo" nekima - priča kaže da je knez odabrao pravoslavlje zbog najlepših crkava, samom činjenicom što je birao znači da je mogao odabrati i nešto drugo.)
3. Julijan Otpadnik je osvojio Persiju, odnosno preživeo svoju pobedu. Od Indije do Britanije se veruje u panteon na čijem je vrhu Mitra-Helios

Bonus (sad mi pade napamet):
Ikonoborci su pobedili u Vizantiji. Pravoslavne crkve više liče na protestantske. Utilitarni duh dovodi do prve industrijske revolucije...
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Melkor

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #33 on: 05-05-2011, 19:28:18 »
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The new magazine of Historical Fiction and Alternate History

Alt Hist is the new magazine of Historical Fiction and Alternate History. Lovers of historical fiction for too long have been denied outlets for short pieces of fiction, as the number of print and online magazines for historical short fiction is very limited compared to the popularity of fiction set in past times. Alt Hist’s mission is to provide readers with entertaining and well-written short stories with a historical setting, whether portraying actual events or events that could have happened. If you read and enjoy historical fiction, alternate history or historical fantasy then we think you will like Alt Hist.
"Realism is a literary technique no longer adequate for the purpose of representing reality."

Kunac

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #34 on: 10-11-2012, 10:16:00 »
U novom NOVOM MAGAZINU (broj 80) nalazi se tekst Dušana Cicvare ALTERNATIVNA ISTORIJA U SRPSKOJ UMETNOSTI u kojem je, na šest stranica, opisan fenomen ukronije u domaćoj književnosti (sa kratkim osvrtom na strip i film).
Cicvara piše o sledećim autorim/delima:

Vladimir Lazović (pripovetke Noć koja bi mogla da promeni sve, Veliko vreme)
Ilija Bakić (Istok aka U severnom bunkeru G aka Govorit Moskva)
Ljubomir Damnjanović (romani Vi što maštate o sreći i Malteški šišmiš)
Goran Skrobonja (Nakot, Sveti rat, Čovek koji je ubio Teslu)
Adrijan Sarajlija (Viva la revolution!)
Vule Žurić (Nedelja pacova i Srpska trilogija)
Antrfile: Zombiji u srpskoj književnosti.
"zombi je mali žuti cvet"

Nightflier

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Re: Alternativna istorija
« Reply #35 on: 18-06-2014, 12:15:30 »
Stiven Stirling je jedno od najvećih imena alternativne istorije i relativno plodan pisac, koji objavljuje najmanje jedan roman godišnje. Kao i većina autora u podžanru alternativne istorije, Stirling ima jasne političke stavove, koji provejavaju kroz njegova dela. Ovo je drugi intervju koji je Stirling dao za moj blog. Ako ne ranije, a ono u septembru ćete moći da ga čitate na srpskom, u Emitoru.

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Na vuka vika a lisice meso vuku.
Better to rule in Hell than serve in McDonald's.
Always an even trade.
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