World today (Ni Srbija ni zemlje u okruženju)

[Plut]

Ni meni nije jasno ko još na trusnom području diže nuklearke. Slušam na HRT-u juče, kao... pa da, i Krško je na terenu koji 'oće da se drma i poznat je po tome. Eto, dugo nije bilo potresa i samo se čeka dan. Aman! 

[mac]

Trusna područja izdižu kamenje iz zemlje, pa zemlja nije pogodna za zemljoradnju, pa je slaba naseljenost, što je zgodno za nuklearke. Recimo.

[Albedo 0]

I ne samo to, sve ove ex-yu državice mogu nekako da postoje dok još nema nekih većih prirodnih katastrofa, ili dok još ekonomske i slične apstrakcije potpuno ne uguše stanovništvo, ali u takvoj ekstremnoj situaciji većih zemljotresa i poplava čak bi se i Srbija jedva održala a ove druge banana države bi se raspale u roku od odmah.

Sve se one nešto kurče u stabilna vremena, ali same po sebi one su sve sprdnja od država koje ne mogu samostalno da opstanu. Čim se nešto jače desi pitanje je šta će biti sa njima, Crnu Goru da pogodi malo jači zemljotres ona postaje prošlost.

Crna Gora, Bosna, čak i Slovenija - boranija bre.

Doduše, i Srbija bi se raspala da nije prilično geografski sigurna, uprkos svemu ona je najsigurnija što se prirodnih katastrofa tiče, svi zemljotresi i poplave su lokalnog karaktera, u odnosu na neke druge dijelove svijeta ovo područje je prilično mirno.

[Meho Krljic]

Građene nuklearnih elektrana je, kao i sve drugo, vežba iz ekonomije. Naravno da niko ne želi da sagradi elektranu a onda udari zemljotres i poruši je i zagadi vodu, zemlju i vazduh za sledećih petsto godina, to čak ni Japanci ne žele.

Ali, pretpostavljam da kada gradiš elektranu njen položaj zavisi od toga gde ti je energija potrebna, kako ćeš je transportovati do korisnika i koliko to košta. Onda u obzir dolazi i trusno područje, a ti naravno gradiš sa određenim stepenom bezbednosti. Na primer, gradiš je tako da može da izdrži zemljotres od 6 po rihteru. Znaš da će je jači zemljotres oštetiti i da je potencijalna šteta od toga nesaglediva ali te u ovom trenutku pravljenje bezbednije elektrane košta toliko mnogo više da ti se ne isplati da takvu gradiš jer bi za te pare petnaest godina struju mogao da dopremljuješ kamionima u te krajeve gde je potrebna (malo karikiram da bi bilo jasnije), a verovatnoća zemljotresa od 6 rihtera je recimo procenjena na manje od 20% u narednih petnaest godina.

Dakle, nekakva ekonomska logika pre svega. Nije lepa, ali to jeste realnost. Kada bismo bezbednost stavljali kao osnovni kriterijum kod gradnje (bilo čega) živeli bismo u daleko bezbednijem svetu ali bi i to življenje bilo daleko skuplje.

[Albedo 0]

Nema problema, ali ta realnost nam lako može doći glave. Lakše i jeftinije ne znači i bolje.

Pitaće se ti Japanci šta/kako/zašto ako im se počne širiti radijacija.

Dakle, što se mene tiče ekonomija je sluga, a njena logika je sredstvo a ne cilj sam po sebi.

[Meho Krljic]

Ma, sve to stoji, u načelu. Ali u praksi, ekonomija je najčešće parametar koji određuje sve ostalo.

Banalan primer: kada bi brzina kretanja automobila na drumu bila ograničena na 30 kilometara na sat, bezednost u saobraćaju uvećala bi se verovatno desetostruko. Ali niko to nikada ne bi prihvatio. Celokupan način na koji društvo funkcioniše bio bi promenjen. Iako bi nebrojeni ljudski životi bili sačuvani, društvo naprosto tako nešto sebi ne bi htelo da priušti.

Sa energijom je isto tako pa još ozbiljnije.

[Albedo 0]

e pa to je pitanje, koliko ozbiljnije?

Automobili mogu da izazovu u najgorem slučaju lančani sudar u kojem će poginuti sto ljudi, to je najgore što mogu da učine,a  to se skoro nikada ne dešava. Ti is sam rekao da je mogućnost zemljotresa od 6 Rihtera 20%, mislim da to šije vožnju automobila 100 na sat višestruko.

jednostavno, to je nuklearka, a opasnost od izlivanja toksičnih materija je veća od opasnosti da čitav jedan grad nestane u nizu saobraćajki.

uostalom, znam ranije kada sam nešto čačkao oko nuklearki da je u japanu i ranije bilo više izlivanja nego u Zapadnoj Evropi ili Americi.

Ali naravno, ja sam u načelu protiv nuklearki, i izbjegavao bi ih koliko je to moguće. Posebno Srbima nisu potrebne pored Drine na kojoj možeš 30 HE da podigneš.

[scallop]

Daj, Albedo, sredi ga! Mnogo mi je informisan, muka me fata. Sad mora da kupim kamion da vozim struju, ako kojim slučajem ne stigne na pijac. Ajd', salonac, pitaj ponekad, neće ti istruli sveznanje.

[Meho Krljic]

Kako da me sredi kada ja samo naglas izgovaram principe na kojima je savremeno društvo izgrađeno? Nisam ja rekao da to tako treba ili da ja navijam za ovu ili onu stranu pa da me on sad sređuje. Činjenica je da i kod bezbednosti kao i kod svega drugog postoji ogroman uticaj ekonomske računice i da savremeno društvo (uvećanu) udobnost neretko pretpostavlja (apsolutnoj) bezbednosti.

[scallop]

Meho moj, principi savremenog društva postoje da se podešavaju prema potrebama onih koji ih nameću. Bolje je živeti u aluzijama nego u iluzijama.

[Meho Krljic]

Pa, sad, to je mnogo šira rasprava nego što smo sad spremni da vodimo. Mogli bismo se pozvati na veliki broj savremenih mislilaca koji su pokazali da je zavera onih-koji-nameću-principe zapravo toliko široka da uključuje većinu građana, kako u društvima koja cene materijalna dobra, udobnost i slobodu govora, tako i u društvima koja cene duhovnu čistotu, požrtvovanost i disciplinu... Ali, kako rekoh, mislim da bi nas to odvuklo u jako široke priče. Za sada, mislim da je dovoljno bilo konstatovati da savremena društva funkcionišu na principima koje sam skicirao i da je to odgovor na pitanje otkud nuklearna elektrana u trusnom području.

[Джон Рейнольдс]

Albedo, hidroelektrane takođe razaraju prirodnu okolinu. Potpuno se menja ekosistem, lokalne vremenske prilike, biljni i životinjski svet, sve. I to nesagledivo i tako da je teško proceniti kakve će sve posledice imati (to jest, potrebne su veoma opsežne studije). Tamo gde je nekad bila reka sad teče rečica a ispred brane je jezero. Nuff said. Zato, veliko je pitanje kakve bi sve posledice tih tvojih trideset HE na Drini imalo. HE, inače, proizvode manje struje nego ostale i zaista ne znam kakve su tu ekonomske računice, koliko je potrebno uložiti u izgradnju i koliko se brzo ta investicija vraća.

Moderne NE su, zapravo, prilično čiste, ako se izuzme mogućnost havarije. Ne zagađuju okolinu svakodnevno poput TE na koje se Srbija ogromnim delom oslanja. Bez problema bih podržao gradnju moderne NE, tim više što Srbija nije toliko trusno područje i prilično je istraženo šta je sklonije drmanju, a šta ne. Kod nas se zemljotres kao ovaj u Japanu prosto ne može dogoditi, ali zato javašluk može.

Druga varijanta su možda elektrane na gas, pošto gas sagoreva s malo ostatka (to jest, ne zagađuje), ali znamo da to ne dolazi u obzir jer bi time na velika vrata u našu proevropsku državicu ušli... brrrr... Rusi.

[Albedo 0]

Naravno da je najčistija odluka da čitava Evropa uloži u solarne ploče koje bi pokrile Saharu, ali ne možeš reći da je NE ekološki čistija od HE, bar što se Drine tiče tu je ionako vraški hladno zimi da povećanje temperature ne bi škodilo ni za poljoprivredu ni za stanovništvo.

Mnogo veći ekološki problem su pančevačke fabrike, a tamo nema nikakve elektrane, nego što bi HE izazvale neku veliku promjenu, u stvari, riječ je o 2-3 Celzijusova stepena.

[scallop]

Naravno da je najčistija odluka da čitava Evropa uloži u solarne ploče koje bi pokrile Saharu.

Onda bi Arapi dobili zamenu za naftu.
Jedini ispravan odgovor je pre više od 20 godina dao prof. dr Milija Janković, predsednik srpskog ekološkog društva i član LK: "Civilizacija košta, a vi vidite čime ćete platiti."

[mac]

Najčistija bi bila solarna energija iz orbite, ali za to ćemo još počekati. Nama bi u međuvremenu jedna prosečna nuklearka uvela raznovrsnost u energetske izvore. Problem sa nuklearkama nije potencijalna radijacija i nuklearni otpad, nego što mnogo košta da se napravi i da se održava. Nisam pametan za te nuklearke...

[scallop]

Bože, Mac! Kod NE je muka gde postaviti WC. 

[Mica Milovanovic]

Džone, nije baš da HE baš toliko zagađuju životnu sredinu. Ima tu određenih problema, ali ni izbliza situacija nije tako dramatična kao što se prikazuje u pojedinim medijima.
Kad bi bilo tako dramatično kao što kažeš, onda bi čitava Zapadna Evropa bila ekološki uništena: Austrija, Švajcarska, Španija, Nemačka, ne bi postojale, koliko imaju hidroelektrana. Kad se uzme u obzir da su one jedini ekonomski isplativ obnovljiv izvor energije, ja ipak mislim da su ispred svih ostalih vidova energije.

Znaš, kad razmišljaš o nuklearnoj energiji, ipak moraš imati u vidu na kojim se prostorima nalazimo i šta se sve u prošlosti dešavalo ovde.

Što se gasa tiče, to se slažem s tvojim razmišljanjem.

[mac]

Pretpostavka prilikom gradnje HE je da će priliv vode biti dovoljan (tj. isplativ) u doglednoj budućnosti. Na stranu to što reka može i sama od sebe da presuši (česta pojava u Španiji recimo), ali samom izgradnjom akumulacionog jezera mi smo promenili ekosistem. Kako će to uticati na priliv vode? Ne znamo.

[Plut]

Najčistije i nekako najsavršenije bi bile biogas elektrane, tj. elektrane koje koriste OIE (obnovljive izvore energije). Velika gradska deponija bi npr. mogla da osvetli čitav grad koji tu deponiju pravi. Poljoprivreda je, takođe, veliki izvor resursa za ovakve elektrane, ili bi se pre moglo reći postojenja pošto su im kapaciteti još uvek prilično mali. Ali se iz ostataka sa životinjskih farmi i npr. biljnih ostataka može proizvesti prilična količina biogasa, a od njega električna i toplotna energija.
Jedan od najzaokruženijih, a korisnih procesa.

[Джон Рейнольдс]

Džone, nije baš da HE baš toliko zagađuju životnu sredinu. Ima tu određenih problema, ali ni izbliza situacija nije tako dramatična kao što se prikazuje u pojedinim medijima.

Nisam napisao da zagađuju, već narušavanju (dobro, upotrebio sam reč "razaraju", prejaku) ekosisteme. Ali okej, ti si tu stručniji, verujem da bi se mogla naći povoljna mesta gde bi cost / benefit bio povoljan. Jer u cenu HE ne ulazi samo gradnja već i ono što će jezero i deo reke uzvodno prekriti. Bio sam pre nekoliko godina u Brzoj Palanci kad je vodostaj bio nizak, a tamo čak i nije jezero.

Moj tast je na važnoj funkciji u HE Đerdap, pa čujem da postoje i neke ideje u "alternativnijim" smerovima. Vetrenjače, na primer. Ali sporo to ide, po običaju.

[scallop]

E, kad bismo preuzeli tehnologiju vetrenjača, košava bi nas ladno grejala.
Problem HE je nalivanje mulja i podizanje nivoa podzemnih voda.
Problem TE je jalovina, koja je i sama, po difoltu, radioaktivnija od osnovne supstance - uglja.
Problem NE je deponovanje iskorišćenog nuklearnog goriva.
Problem biogasa je što je dopunski vid energije (vetrenjače i sunčana energija delom spadaju u tu grupu).
Ima tu još niz alternativnih izvora, plima i oseka, temperaturna razlika različitih dubina okeana, ali je uvek bitan problem konzerviranje povremenih viškova i transport električne energije. Kad bismo znali da konzerviramo, bilo bi doboljno da "trljamo oblake".
Pored tehnološke cene, svaka energija ima i ekološku cenu, a nju tek ima da platimo. Baš više i ne znam mnogo o tome, mnogo se zaboravi, ali ako drugi mogu da raspravljaju o energiji, mogu i ja.

[Mica Milovanovic]

mac, džone, radmilo, ovo mi je najuža specijalnost. Kad bih hteo dodao bih na vaš spisak negativnih efekata HE još dvadesetak stavki. Svestan sam ja toga.
Ali sve to kad se sabere ne može ni izbliza da dostigne negativne efekte jedne termoelektrane. A nuklearnu energiju ja ne bih ozbiljno razmatrao na ovim prostorima, iz mnogo razloga.

Ostali alternativni vidovi energije ili nisu ekonomski isplativi, pa se veštački nameću (kao što su vetrenjače, itd.), ili ima problema sa njihovim skladištenjem, ili ih naprosto nema dovoljno da bi bili značajni sa stanovišta energetskog bilansa.

Jedan Đerdap ili Bajina Bašta, uz sve probleme koji idu uz njih, predstavljaju pravo blago ove zemlje. Ne verujte kad vas ubeđuju u suprotno.

[Albedo 0]

Ma to Đelić sada propagira NE kao Topalovići svoj krematorijum

[scallop]

mac, džone, radmilo, ovo mi je najuža specijalnost.

Upravo koliko i meni.

[Mica Milovanovic]

Dobro, de... Znam nešto malo više o istoriji engleskog punokrvnog konja do 1800, ali...

[Mica Milovanovic]

A umesto da ovde gubiš vreme, zašto nisi došao danas da ti dam Emitore za prekucavanje. Sad će zakk da se vadi da je pao sve ispite zbog naše bibliografije... 

Uzgred saznao bi dosta toga o nekom neprilagođenom skotu hodočasniku. Javlja se u stripu, filmu, a nešto sam načuo da se pojavljuje i u igricama. Bubnjar koji je žurio na svirku pominjao je i Kamija (ne Sen Sansa). Shvatio sam da mi tamo nije mesto kad su se prebrojavali da li je u njihovo vreme Stranac bio u lektiri.
Čuj, u lektiri? Tek što ga je napisao... Don Kihot je lektira...

[scallop]

Obično kad ja dođem ti se ne pojaviš. Bio sam zauzet formulisanjem teme za radionicu. Moći ćeš da pišeš i o tim konjima, ako znaš dovoljno o magarcima.

[Meho Krljic]

Japanski apdejt: nuklearno zagađenje vrlo ozbiljno:

Radiation level soars after Japan nuke plant fire

By ERIC TALMADGE and SHINO YUASA, Associated Press Eric Talmadge And Shino Yuasa, Associated Press – 2 mins ago
SOMA, Japan – Dangerous levels of radiation leaking from a crippled nuclear plant forced Japan to order 140,000 people to seal themselves indoors Tuesday after an explosion and a fire dramatically escalated the crisis spawned by a deadly tsunami.

In a nationally televised statement, Prime Minister Naoto Kan said radiation has spread from four reactors of the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant in Fukushima state, one of the hardest-hit in Friday's 9.0-magnitude earthquake and the ensuing tsunami that has killed more than 10,000 people, plunged millions into misery and pummeled the world's third-largest economy.

Though Kan and other officials urged calm, Tuesday's developments fueled a growing panic in Japan and around the world amid widespread uncertainty over what would happen next.

The International Atomic Energy Agency said Tuesday that Japanese officials told it that the reactor fire was in the storage pond — a pool where used nuclear fuel is kept cool — and that "radioactivity is being released directly into the atmosphere."

In the worst case scenario, the reactor's core would completely melt down, a disaster that could spew large amounts of radioactity into the atmosphere.

Officials just south of Fukushima reported up to 100 times the normal levels of radiation Tuesday morning, Kyodo News agency reported. While those figures are worrying if there is prolonged exposure, they are far from fatal.

Tokyo reported slightly elevated radiation levels, but officials said the increase was too small to threaten the 39 million people in and around the capital, about 170 miles (270 kilometers) away. Closer to the stricken nuclear complex, the streets in the coastal city of Soma were empty as the few residents who remained there heeded the government's warning to stay indoors.

Kan and other officials warned there is danger of more leaks and told people living within 19 miles (30 kilometers) of the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex to stay indoors to avoid exposure that could make people sick.

"Please do not go outside. Please stay indoors. Please close windows and make your homes airtight," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told residents in the danger zone.

"These are figures that potentially affect health. There is no mistake about that," he said.

Weather forecasts for Fukushima were for snow and wind from the northeast Tuesday evening, blowing southwest toward Tokyo, then shifting and blowing west out to sea. That's important because it shows which direction a possible nuclear cloud might blow.

The nuclear crisis is the worst Japan has faced since the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II. It is also the first time that such a grave nuclear threat has been raised in the world since a nuclear power plant in Chernobyl, Ukraine exploded in 1986.

Some 70,000 people had already been evacuated from a 12-mile (20-kilometer) radius from the Dai-ichi complex. About 140,000 remain in the new warning zone.

Workers were desperately trying to stabilize three reactors at the power plant that exploded in the wake of Friday's quake and tsunami, after losing their ability to cool down and releasing some radiation. Since the quake, engineers have been injecting seawater into the reactors as a last-ditch coolant.

A fourth reactor that had been shut down before the quake caught fire Tuesday and more radiation was released, Edano said.

The fire was put out. Even though the fourth reactor was shut down, the fire there was believed to be the source of the elevated radiation.

"It is likely that the level of radiation increased sharply due to a fire at Unit 4," Edano said. "Now we are talking about levels that can damage human health. These are readings taken near the area where we believe the releases are happening. Far away, the levels should be lower."

He said another reactor whose containment building exploded Monday had not contributed greatly to the increased radiation. Edano said that reactor, and another, Unit 3, had stabilized but the status of Unit 2 was unclear.

Temperatures in two other reactors, units 5 and 6, were slightly elevated, Edano said.

"The power for cooling is not working well and the temperature is gradually rising, so it is necessary to control it," he said.

Officials said 50 workers, all of them wearing protective radiation gear, were still trying to pump water into the reactors to cool them. They say 800 other staff were evacuated. The fires and explosions at the reactors have injured 15 workers and military personnel and exposed up to 190 people to elevated radiation.

In Tokyo, slightly higher-than-normal radiation levels were detected Tuesday but officials insisted there are no health dangers.

"The amount is extremely small, and it does not raise health concerns. It will not affect us," Takayuki Fujiki, a Tokyo government official said.

Kyodo reported that radiation levels nine times higher than normal were briefly detected in Kanagawa prefecture near Tokyo and that the Tokyo metropolitan government said it had detected a small amount of radioactive materials in the air.

Edano said the radiation readings had fallen significantly by the evening.

Japanese government officials are being rightly cautious, said Donald Olander, professor emeritus of nuclear engineering at University of California at Berkeley. He believed even the heavily elevated levels of radiation around Dai-ichi are "not a health hazard." But without knowing specific dose levels, he said it was hard to make judgments.

"Right now it's worse than Three Mile Island," Olander said. But it's nowhere near the levels released during Chernobyl.

On Three Mile Island, the radiation leak was held inside the containment shell — thick concrete armor around the reactor. The Chernobyl reactor had no shell and was also operational when the disaster struck. The Japanese reactors automatically shut down when the quake hit and are encased in containment shells.

Olander said encasing the reactors in a concrete sarcophagus — the last-ditch effort done in Chernobyl — is far too premature. Operators need to wait until they cool more, or risk making the situation even worse.

The death toll from last week's earthquake and tsunami jumped Tuesday as police confirmed the number killed had topped 2,700, though that grim news was overshadowed by a deepening nuclear crisis. Officials have said previously that at least 10,000 people may have died in Miyagi province alone.

Millions of people spent a fourth night with little food, water or heating in near-freezing temperatures as they dealt with the loss of homes and loved ones. Asia's richest country hasn't seen such hardship since World War II.

With snow and freezing temperatures forecast for the next several days, shelters were gathering firewood to burn for heat, stacking it under tarps and tables.

Though Japanese officials have refused to speculate on the death toll, Indonesian geologist Hery Harjono, who dealt with the 2004 Asian tsunami, said it would be "a miracle really if it turns out to be less than 10,000" dead.

The 2004 tsunami killed 230,000 people — of which only 184,000 bodies were found.

The impact of the earthquake and tsunami dragged down stock markets. The benchmark Nikkei 225 stock average plunged for a second day Tuesday, nose-diving more than 10 percent to close at 8,605.15 while the broader Topix lost more than 8 percent.

To lessen the damage, Japan's central bank made two cash injections totaling 8 trillion yen ($98 billion) Tuesday into the money markets after pumping in $184 billion on Monday.

Initial estimates put repair costs in the tens of billions of dollars, costs that would likely add to a massive public debt that, at 200 percent of gross domestic product, is the biggest among industrialized nations.

Yuta Tadano, a 20-year-old pump technician at the Fukushima plant, said he was in the complex when quake hit.

"It was terrible. The desks were thrown around and the tables too. The walls started to crumble around us and there was dust everywhere. The roof began to collapse.

"We got outside and confirmed everyone was safe . Then we got out of there. We had no time to be tested for radioactive exposure. I still haven't been tested," Tadano told The Associated Press at an evacuation center.

"I worry a lot about fallout. If we could see it we could escape, but we can't," said Tadano, cradling his 4-month-old baby, Shoma.

The Dai-ichi plant is the most severely affected of three nuclear complexes that were declared emergencies after suffering damage in Friday's quake and tsunami, raising questions about the safety of such plants in coastal areas near fault lines and adding to global jitters over the industry.

___

Yuasa reported from Tokyo. Associated Press writer Elaine Kurtenbach contributed to this report.

[scallop]

Mene ozlojeđuje mesto koje se daje padu vrednosti akcija na tržištu. Popizdim. Da im pukne Jeloustoun, prva briga bi im bila Dow Jones index.

[Plut]

Kažu da pada sve osim građevinske industrije.

[Meho Krljic]

Srbija se solidariše sa Japanom
Za samo 12 sati više od 1500 ljudi pristupilo grupi za podršku japanskom narodu


Juče je na društvenom mreži Facebook osnovana stranica "Solidarnost sa Japanom" ( http://www.facebook.com/pages/Solidarnost-sa-Japanom/194971760535231 ). Za manje od 12 sati više od 1500 ljudi pristupilo je grupi za podršku japanskom narodu, šaljući poruke solidarnosti.


Uz poruke da je Japan pomagao Srbiji (i drugim balkanskim državama) u mnogim prilikama u predhodnim godinama, učesnici akcije "Solidarnost sa Japanom" pozivaju sve članove mreže Facebook da podrže akciju, kao i da preko Crvenog krsta Srbije uplate novčane priloge japanskom narodu.


Ipak, oni koji nisu u mogućnosti da novčano pomognu, svojim porukama mogu da podrže japanski narod u najtežoj situaciji od drugog svetskog rata.


Strana "Solidarnost sa Japanom" se nalazi ovde - http://www.facebook.com/pages/Solidarnost-sa-Japanom/194971760535231

[mac]

A Japanu naročito trebaju naše uplate... Ako baš hoće da im pomognu bolje neka kupe japanske proizvode (automobili i tehnika). Za ostalo će se i sami snaći. Baš me zanima šta će se desiti s tim novcem. Očekujem od japanskog ambasadora izjavu da će Srbi najbolje pomoći Japanu ako od tih skupljenih para GSB podigne perionicu za svoje autobuse.

Ljudi treba da stave stvar u pravu perspektivu. Procenjuje se da je nastradalo deset hiljada Japanaca. Šta je to naspram 230 hiljada nastradalih 2004. u zemljotresu u Indijskom okeanu?

[Meho Krljic]

S druge strane, Sri Lanka i Indonezija nemaju industriju koju ima Japan pa ovakav zemljotres možda Japan može da setbekuje mnogo više nego ove zemlje njihov cunami. Plus naravno radijacija.

[Mark]

Zaista ih je potrefilo! Nemam reci ...

NIGHTMARE!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm

Before and after!



Saundrek:

Crass - Nagasaki Nightmare

[džin tonik]

Kažu da pada sve osim građevinske industrije.

pogledaj njemacke solarne dionice. uspijeh kupiti jedinu koja nije posteno otisla gore.

[Loni]

Jedan Đerdap ili Bajina Bašta, uz sve probleme koji idu uz njih, predstavljaju pravo blago ove zemlje. Ne verujte kad vas ubeđuju u suprotno.

Tačno.

Uostalom naše hidroelektrane su jako male.
U najgorem slučaju rušenja, poplavljeno bi bilo tek nekoliko sela.

Pogledajte kolike su hidroelektrane na Volgi.
To su jezera dugačka po 200 km,
a široka bar 10.
Plus se nalaze na milionskim gradovima (Samara, Volgograd, Kazanj...).

Uosalom poplave su ipak manje zlo od radijacije.
Kad talas prođe, ko je živ preživeo je,
s radijacijom ode čist vazduh na bar deceniju...

[Джон Рейнольдс]

Lomljavino, čoveče...  Postoji li IŠTA što ti znaš? U slučaju rušenja bilo bi poplavljeno nekoliko sela? Rušenjem HE "Đerdap 1" Kladovo bi, recimo, bilo potpuno zbrisano (oko 9.000 stanovnika). Selo. Plus još nekoliko nizvodno. Sitnica, a?

[varvarin]

Šta je to Kladovo ??

[Meho Krljic]

U Japanu i dalje pakao:

Workers briefly abandon Japan nuclear plant as crisis worsens

By Shinichi Saoshiro and Chisa Fujioka Shinichi Saoshiro And Chisa Fujioka – 1 hr 10 mins ago
TOKYO (Reuters) – Workers were ordered to withdraw briefly from a stricken Japanese nuclear power plant on Wednesday after radiation levels surged, a development that suggested the crisis was spiraling out of control.

Just hours earlier another fire broke out at the earthquake-crippled facility, which has sent low levels of radiation wafting into Tokyo in the past 24 hours, triggering fear in the capital and international alarm.

Workers were trying to build a road so fire trucks could reach reactor No. 4. Flames were no longer visible at the building housing the reactor, but TV pictures showed rising smoke or steam. A helicopter was also preparing to pour water on to No. 3 reactor -- whose roof was damaged by an earlier explosion -- to try to cool its fuel rods, broadcaster NHK said.

Nuclear experts said the solutions being proposed to quell radiation leaks at the Daiichi complex in Fukushima, 240 km (150 miles north of Tokyo, were last-ditch efforts to stem what could well be remembered as one of the world's worst industrial disasters.

"This is a slow-moving nightmare," said Dr Thomas Neff, a research affiliate at the Center for International Studies, which is part of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Panic over the economic impact of last Friday's massive earthquake and tsunami knocked $620 billion off Japan's stock market over the first two days of this week, but the Nikkei index rebounded on Wednesday to end up 5.68 percent.

Nevertheless, estimates of losses to Japanese output from damage to buildings, production and consumer activity ranged from between 10 and 16 trillion yen ($125-$200 billion), up to one-and-a-half times the economic losses from the devastating 1995 Kobe earthquake.

Damage to Japan's manufacturing base and infrastructure is also threatening significant disruption to the global supply chain, particularly in the technology and auto sectors.

Scores of flights to Japan have been halted or rerouted, air travelers are avoiding Tokyo for fear of radiation, and on Wednesday France urged its nationals in the city either to leave Japan or head to the south of the country.

The plight of hundreds of thousands left homeless by the quake and devastating tsunami that followed worsened overnight following a cold snap that brought snow to some of the worst-affected areas.

While the death toll stands at around 4,000, more than 7,000 are listed as missing and the figure is expected to rise.

At the Fukushima plant, authorities have spent days desperately trying to prevent water which is designed to cool the radioactive cores of the reactors from evaporating, which would lead to overheating and possibly a dangerous meltdown.

Concern now centers on damage to a part of the No.4 reactor building where spent rods were being stored in pools of water, and also to part of the No.2 reactor that helps to cool and trap the majority of cesium, iodine and strontium in its water.

Japanese officials said they were talking to the U.S. military about possible help at the plant.

Concern mounted earlier that the skeleton crews dealing with the crisis might not be big enough or were exhausted after working for days since the earthquake damaged the facility. Authorities withdrew 750 workers on Tuesday, leaving only 50.

All those remaining were pulled out for almost an hour on Wednesday because radiation levels were too high, but they were later allowed to return.

Arnie Gundersen, a 39-year veteran of the nuclear industry, now chief engineer at Fairwinds Associates Inc and who worked on reactor designs similar to Daiichi plant, said 50 or so people could not babysit six nuclear plants.

"That evacuation (of 750 workers) is a sign they may be throwing in the towel," Gundersen said.

RADIATION IN TOKYO NOT A THREAT TO HUMAN HEALTH

In the first hint of international frustration at the pace of updates from Japan, Yukiya Amano, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said he wanted more timely and detailed information.

"We do not have all the details of the information so what we can do is limited," Amano told a news conference in Vienna. "I am trying to further improve the communication."

Several experts said the Japanese authorities were underplaying the severity of the incident, particularly on a scale called INES used to rank nuclear incidents. The Japanese have so far rated the accident a four on a one-to-seven scale, but that rating was issued on Saturday and since then the situation has worsened dramatically.

France's nuclear safety authority ASN said on Tuesday it should be classed as a level-six incident.

Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan on Tuesday urged people within 30 km (18 miles) of the facility -- a population of 140,000 -- to remain indoors, as authorities grappled with the world's most serious nuclear accident since the Chernobyl disaster in Ukraine in 1986.

Officials in Tokyo said radiation in the capital was 10 times normal at one point but not a threat to human health in the sprawling high-tech city of 13 million people.

Levels dropped to minimal on Wednesday, but nerves were shaken by a 6.0 earthquake which shook buildings.

But residents nevertheless reacted to the crisis by staying indoors. Public transport and the streets were as deserted as they would be on a public holiday, and many shops and offices were closed.

Winds over the plant were forecast to blow from the northwest during Wednesday, which would take radiation toward the Pacific Ocean.

Fears of transpacific nuclear fallout sent consumers scrambling for radiation antidotes in the U.S. Pacific Northwest and Canada. Authorities warned that people would expose themselves to other medical problems by needlessly taking potassium iodide in the hope of protection from cancer.

"WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?"

Japanese media have became more critical of Kan's handling of the disaster and criticized the government and plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. for their failure to provide enough information on the incident.

"This government is useless," Masako Kitajima, a Tokyo office worker in her 50s, said as radiation levels ticked up in the city.

Kan himself lambasted the operator for taking so long to inform his office about one of the blasts on Tuesday. A Kyodo news agency reporter quoted the prime minister demanding the power company executives: "What the hell is going on?."

Nuclear radiation is an especially sensitive issue for Japanese following the country's worst human catastrophe -- the U.S. atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945.

The full extent of the destruction from Friday's earthquake and tsunami was becoming clear as rescuers combed through the region north of Tokyo where officials say at least 10,000 people were killed.

Whole villages and towns have been wiped off the map by the wall of water, triggering an international humanitarian effort of epic proportions.

There have been hundreds of aftershocks and more than two dozen were greater than magnitude 6, the size of the earthquake that severely damaged Christchurch, New Zealand, last month.

About 850,000 households in the north were still without electricity in near-freezing weather, Tohuku Electric Power Co. said, and the government said at least 1.5 million households lack running water. Tens of thousands of people were missing.

NHK offered tips on how to stay warm, for instance by wrapping your abdomen in newspaper and clingfilm, and how to boil water using empty aluminum cans and candles.

Most economists now believe that the Japanese economy, which had been starting to recover when the earthquake struck, will contract in the second quarter of 2011.

A few economists also flagged the risk of a prolonged disruption to consumers and companies and a decline in economic output through 2011 should power outages persist until December.

Prices for key tech components such as computer memory chips have spiked due to factory outages at companies including electronics giant Sony Corp, silicon wafter maker Shin-Etsu Chemical and Toshiba, a major supplier of NAND flash memory chips used in mobile devices.

(Additional reporting by Nathan Layne, Linda sieg, Risa Maeda, Isabel Reynolds, Dan Sloan and Leika Kihara in Tokyo, Chris Meyers and Kim Kyung-hoon in Sendai, Taiga Uranaka and Ki Joon Kwon in Fukushima, Noel Randewich in San Francisco, and Miyoung Kim in Seoul; Writing by David Fox and Nick Macfie; Editing by John Chalmers and Dean Yates)

Imajući na umu kako je Buš tretirao Katrinu/ poplavu u Nju Orlinsu i kako se to odrazilo na stav javnosti prema vlastima, biće zanimljivo porediti šta rade Japanske vlasti i kako će građani da reaguju.

[Anomander Rejk]

Ovo stvarno postaje sve opasnije.

[Meho Krljic]

A Ameri navalili da kupuju Kalijum Jodid ne bi li spremni dočekali radioaktivni oblak što stiže preko pacifika.:

Can a Pill Save You From Radiation Poisoning?


E, sad, u busu sam malopre preko nečijeg ramena video naslov u Kuriru da oblak očekuju i u Evropi posle nekoliko dana, pa, ako verujete Kuriru, sad je trenutak da se opskrbite KI tabletama.

[mac]

E vidiš, to bi bila korisna humanitarna pomoć, pilule kalijum jodida.

[Albedo 0]

ma to nema šanse da dođe do Evrope, Zemlja je mala planeta ali nije toliko mala.

[Meho Krljic]

Alo! (a ne Kurir kako sam ja mislio) tvrdi drugačije:

Radioaktivni oblak za 14 dana u Evropi!

Panika! U nuklearki Fukušima u Japanu eksplodirao je i drugi reaktor, a radijacija je 400 puta veća od dozvoljene, priznali su zvaničnici!


Naoto Kan, premijer Japana, priznao je da postoji veći rizik od radijacije i zamolio sve koji žive na 30 kilometara od nuklearke da ne izlaze iz kuća. U Tokiju vlada panika, hiljade ljudi žele da napuste grad. Aerodromi su zakrčeni, dok se u područjima koje je razrušio cunami oseća nedostatak hrane i vode za piće. Policija je saopštila da je broj žrtava cunamija i zemljotresa 10.000 i da su u ovaj bilans uračunati potvrđeni smrtni slučajevi i osobe koje se vode kao nestale.
U Vladivostoku, na istoku Rusije, koji se nalazi 800 kilometara od Fukušime, već je zabeležena pojačana radijacija. Nadležni tvrde da je spreman plan za evakuaciju stanovništva.
Švedska agencija za atomsku energiju je saopštila da će radioaktivni oblak iz Fukošime stići u Evropu za 14 dana, preko Severne Amerike. Slično predviđanje je dala i slovenačka agencija za atomsku energiju, a stručnjaci tvrde da se ne očekuju posledice kao prilikom katastrofe u Černobilju, pre više od dve decenije. Međutim, situacija u čak tri reaktora u japanskoj nuklearki je kritična. Ukoliko njihovo hlađenje ne uspe i pregrevanje se nastavi, posledice će biti katastrofalne po ceo svet. U jučerašnjoj eksploziji oštećeno je dno kontejnera u kojem se nalazi reaktor. Oko 800 radnika povučeno je iz nuklearke. Samo njih 50 ostalo je u očajničkoj borbi da pokuša da očuva jezgra u reaktorima od topljenja.


Na hiljade stanovnika Tokija, koji se nalazi 270 kilometara od nuklearke, odlučilo je da napusti grad. Evakuaciju svojih državljana i zaposlenih u ambasadama su preporučile brojne zemlje. Osim hrane, najtraženija roba u Tokiju su radio-prijemnici, sveće, gas i vreće za spavanje.



Patrijarh protiv nuklearne energije!
Vaseljenski patrijarh Vartolomej Prvi osudio je upotrebu nuklearne energije kao ,,provokaciju" koja krši zakone prirode. Patrijarh se oglasio posle katastrofe u Japanu i bojazni da će u atmosferu dospeti velika količina radijacije.
,,Nuklearna energija je opasna za integritet ljudske vrste. Osuđujemo to što se čovečanstvo oslanja na ovaj vid energije dovodeći u pitanje svoj opstanak. Čovečanstvo bi trebalo da se oslanja na obnovljive izvore energije", naveo je patrijarh Vartolomej Prvi.
Reagovala je i vlada u Berlinu, koja je zamrzla odluku o produženju rada nemačkih nuklearki na tri meseca. U tom periodu bi trebalo da bude ispitana bezbednost svih nuklearki u zemlji.



Reper ismevao žrtve!
Američki reper Fifti Sent izazvao je osudu javnosti zbog toga što je ismevao žrtve zemljotresa i cunamija u Japanu. Reper je na svom profilu na sajtu ,,tviter" neumesno prokomentarisao katastrofu u Japanu.
,,Vidite ove vrlo ozbiljne ljude. Moram da evakuišem sve moje kurve iz Los Anđelesa, sa Havaja i Japana. Moram to da uradim. Lol", napisao je reper.



Nova havarija!
Još jedan požar izbio je sinoć u reaktoru 4 nuklearne elektrane ,,Fukušima-1" na severu Japana, saopštila je Tokijska energetska kompanija. Novom havarijom situacija u Japanu je značajno pogoršana, a direktor Međunarodne agencije za atomsku energiju upozorio je da postoji mogućnost oštećenja i jezgra u reaktoru 2. Japan je obavestio ovu agenciju da se radioaktivnost širi ,,direktno" u atmosferu.
U novoj havariji oštećen je krov zgrade u kojoj se nalazi reaktor 4, u kojem je već bilo požara. Američki Institut za nauku i međunarodnu bezbednost konstatuje da nivo incidenta označen sa 4, na skali od 1 do 7, više nije dovoljan za ocenu nuklearne drame u eklektrani Fukušima 1 i da je sadašnje stanje bliže nivou 6. Katastrofa u Černobilju označena je sa 7.

Naravno, Alo! baš i nije novina od kredibiliteta, ali važno je da su citirali Patrijarhovo mišljenje i osvrnuli se na repera koji je ismevao žrtve...

[Albedo 0]

upravo sam čuo na TVu da se 750 zaposlenih evakuisalo iz elektrane a 50 ljudi ostalo (ima i u Mehovom tekstu) da što više smanje izlivanje radioaktivnog materijala, svjesni da će ih ostajanje u svakom slučaju izbrisati sa lica Zemlje.

Iskreno sam tužan i fasciniran istovremeno.

[Meho Krljic]

Da, ali najnovije Skaj Njuz vesti tvrde da se radnici vraćaju u elektranu! Bizar šit!!!

Evacuated Workers Return To Nuclear Plant

Workers are preparing to return to the tsunami-hit Fukushima nuclear power plant following an evacuation due to a surge in radiation. Skip related content


An official at the plant confirmed the workers' return as government spokesperson Yukio Edano said radiation levels are not high enough to cause an immediate health risk.

Staff had been evacuated after radiation levels spiked for a second time to their highest levels so far at Reactor 3 and a second fire broke out at Reactor 4.

Shortly after the evacuation, a military helicopter was seen carrying water to the plant, apparently to cool down the most troubled reactors, according to Japan's NHK public broadcaster.

The flames at the fourth reactor's containment vessel were brought under control but white smoke or steam was seen rising from the facility in the northeast of the earthquake and tsunami-devastated country.

Officials have been struggling to address the failure of safety systems at several of the plant's reactors.

There are six reactors at the plant, and the three that were operating at the time of the magnitude 9.0 earthquake and tsunami.

Two workers are missing after an explosion at the plant on Tuesday.

It is believed they were working in the turbine area of Reactor 4 at the time of the blast.

The government has ordered some 140,000 people in the vicinity to stay indoors.

Those living less than 12 miles (20km) from the site have been told to evacuate.

A low level of radiation was also detected in Tokyo, triggering panic buying of food and water.

Meanwhile, Japan's nuclear safety agency has said around 70% of the nuclear fuel rods in Reactor 1 have been damaged.

Agency spokesman Minoru Ohgoda said: "We don't know the nature of the damage, and it could be either melting, or there might be some holes in them."

The Kyodo news agency said 33% of the fuel rods at a second reactor were also damaged.

On Tuesday, the country's prime minister Naoto Kan said radiation levels on the east coast had "risen considerably".

The nuclear crisis has triggered international alarm and partly overshadowed the damage caused by the two natural disasters that killed an estimated 10,000 people.

It has also led to a worldwide review of nuclear technology.

[varvarin]

upravo sam čuo na TVu da se 750 zaposlenih evakuisalo iz elektrane a 50 ljudi ostalo (ima i u Mehovom tekstu) da što više smanje izlivanje radioaktivnog materijala, svjesni da će ih ostajanje u svakom slučaju izbrisati sa lica Zemlje.

Iskreno sam tužan i fasciniran istovremeno.

Čitam to s  poštovanjem  (kako ono reče Nelson svojima, pred bitku kod Trafalgara: "Engleska očekuje da svako od vas vrši svoju dužnost!")
Spadam u starije ovde - pa, prisećam se jednog incidenta u reaktoru u Vinči, davnih šezdesetih... Krenulo je naopako, greškom jednog čoveka, a ozračeni su ljudi koji su pokušavali da poprave to... Država ih je poslala na lečenje u Francusku, svaka čast - ali za godinu dana, svi behu mrtvi.
Razmišljamo li ponekad šta se očekuje od nas? Šta je dužnost?

[Meho Krljic]

Pa, sad... Možda je dužnost vojnika da pogine ako zatreba. Možda i policajca i vatrogasca. Ali ne verujem da je to podrazumevani deo posla radnika u elektrani.

[varvarin]

Pa, sad... Možda je dužnost vojnika da pogine ako zatreba. Možda i policajca i vatrogasca. Ali ne verujem da je to podrazumevani deo posla radnika u elektrani.

S tim što havarija elektrane povlači ozračenje za desetine hiljada?
Koje može smanjiti mala grupa ljudi - ako siđe u tačku nula da odradi neke stvari?
Ili ovo nikako nije srpski fazon u razmišljanju?
Samo razmišljam naglas.

[Mica Milovanovic]

Meho, bojim se da nisi u pravu.