World today (Ni Srbija ni zemlje u okruženju)

[Anomander Rejk]

 
http://www.pravda.rs/2014/09/18/beograd-britanska-ambasada-oblepljena-plakatima-za-nezavisnost-skotske/

[Meho Krljic]

Evo, Kameron može da otre suze (mada ovo naravno ne znači da po Evropi sad neće biti pritisaka da se organizuju slični referendumi u Španiji, Francuskoj, Rumuniji, Bosni i ko zna gde sve ne):

Scottish Independence result: Salmond accepts defeat as Cameron says debate has been 'settled for a generation'

Prime Minister David Cameron said it now was time "for our United Kingdom to come together and to move forward"

The Scottish electorate's rejection of independence was greeted with delight by Prime Minister David Cameron, who said that the victory margin of around 55%-45% had settled the issue "for a generation... perhaps for a lifetime".

Speaking outside Downing Street, Mr Cameron said he would ensure that commitments to further devolution to Scotland made during the campaign would be "honoured in full".

Earlier, Scottish National Party First Minister Alex Salmond acknowledged that his dream of leading his nation to independence was over, telling supporters in Edinburgh: "Scotland has by a majority decided not at this stage to become an independent country.


"I accept that verdict of the people and I call on all of Scotland to follow suit in accepting the democratic verdict of the people of Scotland."


The pound has risen sharply and the FTSE 100 Index is expected to follow suit in a relief rally for markets after Scotland's rejection of independence.

Sterling climbed by almost 1% overnight to as high as 1.65 against the US dollar as traders reacted to the first poll results showing support for the No campaign.

In a dramatic announcement, Mr Cameron also announced plans to devolve powers in other parts of the United Kingdom.

"It is time for our United Kingdom to come together and to move forward," said the PM. "A vital part of that will be a balanced settlement fair to people in Scotland and importantly to everyone in England, Wales and Northern Ireland as well."


In a clear warning to nationalists that it would be wrong to seek to revive the independence debate after a vote which engaged more than 80% of the Scottish electorate, Mr Cameron said: "There can be no debates, no re-runs. We have heard the settled will of the Scottish people."

And he added: "The people of Scotland have spoken and it is a clear result. They have kept our country of four nations together and, like millions of other people, I am delighted.

"As I said during the campaign, it would have broken my heart to see our United Kingdom come to an end and I know that sentiment is shared by people not just across our country but also around the world."

Voters in First Minister Alex Salmond's own constituency of Aberdeenshire resoundingly rejected independence.

With a turnout of 87.2%, there were 108,606 votes cast for No (60.3%) compared with 71,337 for Yes (39.6%).

Harry Potter author and pro-Union supporter JK Rowling was among the first celebrities to hail Scotland's decision to turn down independence.

The writer, who declared her support for the No campaign with a £1million donation earlier this year, said as the final result became clear: "Been up all night watching Scotland make history. A huge turnout, a peaceful democratic process: we should be proud."

She had previously used her website to voice her concerns about the economy and medical research in the lead-up to the referendum.

But her position on the Yes/No vote made her the subject of online abuse from pro-independence supporters over the past few months.

Scottish entrepreneur and model Michelle Mone, who had threatened to leave for England if the nation voted Yes, said both sides had fought passionately.

Hollywood star Alan Cumming urged fellow Yes voters not to give up campaigning for more powers for Scotland following the defeat.

The X-Men actor tweeted this morning: "My YES friends, let's turn our passion towards ensuring the Devo Max promises the Westminster establishment have made to us are delivered."

He later added: "Yes still means something. Please try to remember that."


There were also wins for Yes in three of Scotland's 32 local authority areas - Dundee, West Dunbartonshire and North Lanarkshire.

While there was a comfortable majority in Dundee, the turnout in the city was 78.8% - lower than many other parts of Scotland, indicating that the Yes campaign has not managed to get voters out in sufficient numbers.

The turnout in Glasgow was even lower at 75%, with 194,779 Yes votes (53.49%) and 169,347 No votes (46.51%).


SNP leader Mr Salmond had been expected to make an appearance at the Aberdeen Exhibition and Conference Centre (AECC) but instead went directly to Edinburgh from his home in Strichen.

Sir Malcolm Bruce, Liberal Democrat MP for Gordon, said: ''The point about this area is that it's Alex Salmond's backyard and his basic proposition has been overwhelmingly rejected here in Aberdeenshire, which I think will have implications.''

On the First Minister's decision not to appear at the AECC count, Sir Malcolm said: ''He only likes to come for acclamation, he doesn't like to come and commiserate with his troops. I think good leaders should be with their troops whether they win or lose but he only wants to be the centre of attention.

''He was coming here until he got first indication that it wasn't going well and he immediately aborted it.''

[Tex Murphy]

Инсајдерски инфо:
Мој брат, посљедњих неколико година стациониран у Шкотској, каже да је кампања политичара који су се залагали за отцјепљење изгледала отприлике овако:
"Ако се отцијепимо, не може никако да нам буде боље него сада, али сасвим је могуће да ће нам бити горе."
Некако нисам претјерано изненађен пропадањем референдума.

"As I said during the campaign, it would have broken my heart to see our United Kingdom come to an end and I know that sentiment is shared by people not just across our country but also around the world."

Не знам како бих то преживио...

[Meho Krljic]

Trebaće i njima neki dr Jovan Rašković

Scottish Referendum: Ugly Scenes Mar Glasgow Protests Following 'No' Vote

Rival supporters of the 'Yes' and 'No' camps are squaring off in George Square, Glasgow, separated by police.

Around 100 'No' supporters waved Union flags and swapped insults with a similar number of 'Yes' supporters. 'No' supporters can be heard singing "Rule Britannia" and are seen apparently making Nazi gestures in some videos.

Following bitter disappointment in the referendum, where a clear majority voted to stick with the union and Great Britain, 'Yes' supporters gathered to make the point that where much of Scotland voted No, Scotland's largest city voted 'Yes'. On the ground were various slogans including 'Too many sheep in Scotland' and 'Glasgow said yes'. Council workers quickly removed the graffiti.

However large groups of 'No' supporters also gathered to celebrate, and the two sides confronted each other, throwing fire-crackers and setting off flares. No serious violence has been recorded.

BBC reporter Cameron Buttle said the atmosphere had changed quickly when a large group of Loyalists, many in Rangers tops, arrived and rushed the 'Yes' supporters. Some Loyalists had concealed Union flags and appeared to have co-ordinated their attack. Flags on display on the Unionist side had Loyalist slogans, some with Northern Irish allusions, including "Springburn/Derry Union" and "Scotland is British, No surrender."

The scenes in George Square have been condemned by both the Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Labour Party.

Lib Dem MP Sir Menzies Campbell told the BBC: "For people like me who are committed to the democratic process and who have valued the way in which this campaign has been conducted until now, it is extremely disappointing. I hope that police will be able to make calm heads prevail and people will go home. The best possible thing would be a heavy shower in George Square. That is often a way of dispersing people who are ready to make trouble."

Following the vote - which the 'No' Camp won with 55% of the vote - two Telegraph journalists were refused entry.

Scottish Referendum: Ugly Scenes Mar Glasgow Protests Following 'No' Vote

[Anomander Rejk]

I Endi Marej se zaleteo i podržao nezavisnost, ko zna, možda u sledećem finalu Wimbldona s Novakom, većina publike bude na Novakovoj strani.)

[Albedo 0]

http://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-forms-theft-workers/

Borise, Borise...

[scallop]

Što sad kukumavčiš za Borisom? Oterao si ga svojim dosadnim insistiranjem, pa vidi kako je kad izgubiš sagovornika.

[Albedo 0]

jedini Boris za kojim kukumavčim je onaj Tadić

[Anomander Rejk]

Gle...http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2014&mm=09&dd=21&nav_category=78&nav_id=902383

[JasonBezArgonauta]

E siroma je, siroma je...

http://www.vesti-online.com/Vesti/Svet/437908/Kim-Dzong-Unu-stikle-i-sir-dosli-glave

[Father Jape]

http://1.vgc.no/drpublish/images/article/2014/10/03/23308531/1/fullbredde/1_dollar_grid.jpg

Predvidivo, iz norveških je novina.

[tomat]

danas dođoh iz Dubrovnika, kugla sladoleda je 10 kuna, oko 1,3€.

[Father Jape]

Dobro, to je turistički grad sa naduvanim cenama... mada sad nije više sezona.

[Ghoul]

Zbog govora argentinske predsjednice u UN-u prekinut TV prijenos

Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner obrušila na SAD i njihove saveznike zbog rata s ISIL-om

Datum objave: 07.10.2014

Većina međunarodnih televizijskih kanala obustavila je emitiranje i prijevod govora predsjednice Argentine na Općoj skupštini Ujedinjenih naroda u New Yorku nakon što se Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner obrušila na SAD i njihove saveznike zbog rata s ISIL-om. Ne treba zaboraviti da je njena država prije nepunih mjesec dana bila prisiljena proglasiti bankrot (drugi puta u povijesti) upravo zbog presude jednog američkog suda. 

Glavne točke govora predsejdnice Kirchner, objavljene su ipak na društvenim mrežama:

"Ovdje smo bili prije godinu dana, kada je kao 'teroristički režim' označena vlada sirijskog predsjednika Assada, a podržalo se 'pobunjenike' u Siriji, koje ste definirali kao 'revolucionare'.
Danas smo se okupili zajedno kako bi iskorijenili ove revolucionare za koje se ispostavilo da su teroristi.

U prošlosti ste uvrstili Hezbollah na popis terorističkih organizacija, a to je velika, priznata stranka u Libanonu!

Vi ste optužili Iran da stoji iza eksplozije koja je uništila Izraelski centar AMIA u Buenos Airesu 1994., iako argentinska istraga nikada nije uspjela dokazati sudjelovanje Irana u tom napadu.

Vi ste usvojili rezoluciju protiv Al-Qaide nakon terorističkih napada 11. rujna. Zemlje poput Iraka i Afganistana razorene su i njihovi stanovnici su ubijeni, dok obje zemlje još uvijek pate zbog terorizma!

Pokazali ste nakon izraelskog napada na Gazu, kada je Izrael počinio strašne zločine i uzrokovao smrt mnogih palestinskih civila, da je vaša pažnja usmjerena na rakete koje su pogodile Izrael, a koji nisu uzrokovale nikakvu štetu, ni žrtve!

Danas, smo se dakle okupili kako bi usvojili rezoluciju o našoj odgovornosti i međunarodnoj borbi protiv 'Islamske Države Iraka i Levanta' (ISIL), organizacije koja koristi potporu saveznika velikih zemalja članica Vijeća sigurnosti Ujedinjenih naroda", rekla je argentinska predsjednica Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner i time zaslužila da se hitno obustavi prijenos i prijevod njenog govora u Ujedinjenim narodima.

Izjave Cristine Kirchner su posebno važne, jer dolaze od strane predsjednice naroda koji je povijesno bio pod velikim utjecajem moćnih lobija iz Washingtona.
Nema sumnje da je već nakon prvih rečenica zavladala prava panika u televizijskim kućama i ekipama koje su njen "heretični" i "skandalozni" govor prenosile iz dvorane Ujedinjenih naroda. Jedini izlaz je bio pogasiti sve kamere i praviti se da se ništa ne događa, ali je sadržaj ipak izašao u javnost putem medija u Latinskoj Americi.

[Meho Krljic]

Pa zar to nije bilo pre neki dan???


http://www.globalresearch.ca/david-cameron-and-cristina-fernandez-de-kirchner-diverging-voices-on-terror-and-extremism-in-the-modern-world/5406474

A taj govor je bio problematičan zbog referenci na Jevreje:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.618225

[Father Jape]

Jedan poznanik, Mađar mojih godina, međunarodni lingvista, ima divan FB status:

The alarming thing about the recent US court decisions is that they keep undermining my European sense of cultural superiority.

Granted, we always acknowledged National Public Radio, Kim Gordon, and a string of universities putting out people who can read, but saw all of it as a thin layer on a continent-wide mass of fat people scooters, cities built out of cardboard in 1987, the death penalty, creationism, lack of free health care, lack of free education, lack of access to birth control, and a firm belief that everything was created by Jesus twenty minutes ago.

Sure, the US has personal computers, the Ford Mustang, and the bomb, but we have Yourcenar, Lévi-Strauss, Bach, the bloke who invented the steam engine, Stephen Fry, public health care, free higher education, nice trains, pensions, no murdering people by the state, and you can totally buy weed in Amsterdam. I mean Hungary has none of this, but I reckon people in West Dakota were real proud of the Moon landing and I'm not even sure that's a state. Not talking about the Moon here. Anyway.

However, even in the last ten years, the US has made amazing progress on civil liberties, elected a black guy for president, and I can apparently buy weed in DC and then marry a man, all in an afternoon.

What joyful conversations were had even a few years back about how there are some people in the Upper West Side worth talking to but the rest is beige suburbia inhabited by morbidly obese people dying from the flu like flies, firmly clutching to the last at their beliefs that the Earth is shaped like a saucepan. If these trends continue, soon we will have nothing left but cobblestones and Thomas Bernhard, and I'll have to mutter `I bet *they* can't play an accordion and smoke a pipe at the same time' under my breath to reassure myself to any little degree.

Well, at least your coffee is still shit.

[Albedo 0]

a u tako nekoj Dakoti - True Detective!

[Albedo 0]

hehe, mrzi me da provjeravam jel ovo tačno, uostalom, smiješno je po sebi

http://www.samopismo.net/2014/10/sud-odlucio-sotonizam-ce-biti-predmet-u.html

[JasonBezArgonauta]

Gad dem!!!!! Sutra imamo kontrolni iz žrtvovanja devica.

[Meho Krljic]

I, sad, ispada da su u Iraku ipak pronađeni primerci oružja za masovno uništenje, to jest pet hiljada primeraka. To jest projektila punjenih bojnim otrovima pto nije "pravo" oružje za masovno uništenje, naravno, ali je neprijatno. Ispada i da je gomila američkih trupa stradala od ovog zaostalog oružja ali da je Pentagon to sakrio. Zašto? Možda zato što su, citiramo "dizajnirana u Americi, proizvedena u Evropi a punjena u Iraku". Najzanimljiviji deo za današnjeg čitaoca je da je Islamska Država sad dobar deo toga uzela za sebe...


Iraq's 'hidden' chemical weapons: US 'covered up' discovery of chemical weapons after 2003 invasion – with many are now in Isis's hands

The US military has reportedly covered up the discovery of huge numbers of chemical weapons in Iraq – stocks which now lie in the occupied lands controlled by Isis.
 
According to an exposé published today by the New York Times, American soldiers reported finding around 5,000 chemical warheads or bombs after the invasion of Iraq and deposition of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
Between 2004 and 2011 at least 17 US soldiers and seven Iraqi police officers were exposed to nerve agents or mustard gas chemicals, but were encouraged by the Pentagon to downplay or under-report any injuries, the Times reported.
The details of Iraq's chemical weapons stores have only emerged now from Iraqi and US officials, redacted intelligence documents and interviews with soldiers because, the paper claimed, because of potential embarrassment for the government.


President George W Bush led the US into war in Iraq on the back of assertions that Saddam Hussein had recently-built weapons of mass destruction, supplies that had only increased in the aftermath of the 9/11 terror attacks.
Yet all the chemical weapons found by soldiers were manufactured before 1991, the Times reported. They consisted largely of 155-millimeter artillery shells or 122-millimeter rockets – not designed for mass destruction, and produced in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war.
According to the Times, the reports were embarrassing for the Pentagon because, in five of the six incidents in which troops were wounded by chemical agents, the munitions appeared to have been "designed in the US, manufactured in Europe and filled in chemical agent production lines built in Iraq by Western companies".



It was also reportedly embarrassing for the US government that had found chemical weapons – but not of the kind that they had claimed existed. As a result, its military and medical staff were unprepared and ill-equipped for the task at hand.
"'Nothing of significance' is what I was ordered to say," said Jarrod Lampier, a recently retired Army major who was present when more than 2,400 nerve-agent rockets were found in a single compound in 2006.
Jarrod Taylor, a former Army sergeant who witnessed the disposal of mustard shells that burned two members of his company, told the Times the public has been misled for a decade. "I love it when I hear, 'Oh there weren't any chemical weapons in Iraq,' " he said. "There were plenty."


Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the chemical weapons discovery is that many were reportedly kept near where they were built in compounds around the Muthanna State Establishment.
The region is now held by Isis – and this summer the Iraqi government said it had witnessed intruders looting the corroded equipment before their surveillance cameras were shut off.
Despite the evidence from the Iraq War that militants can use old equipment in the production of improvised explosive devices (IEDs), the US government told the Times that the abandoned weapons no longer pose a threat.
A spokesperson for the Pentagon told the newspaper the suspect weapons had to be destroyed "promptly".


"These suspect weapons were recovered under circumstances in which prompt destruction was dictated by the need to ensure that the chemical weapons could not threaten the Iraqi people, neighboring states, coalition forces, or the environment," a statement read.

[scallop]

Sumnjam da bi želeo da raspravljamo o "sirotinjskoj atomskoj bombi", kako je u moje vreme nazivano hemijsko oružje. U vreme interneta mogu da ga prave i mala deca. A ako bi želeo, mogao bih svašta da ti kažem o tome.

[Meho Krljic]

Pa, kaži koliko misliš da je relevantno.  Pa ćemo raspravljati ako imamo o čemu, mada ja nisam neki veliki poznavalac oružja.

[scallop]

Pa, činjenica je da je Sadam raspolagao hemijskim oružjem i da ga je koristio u ratu sa Iranom. I kad se donese odluka da se od nekog oružja odrekne nije to lako sprovesti. Neko sakrije, neko mazne, pa nije čudo da godinama kasnije nekim čudom iznikne tamo gde ga ne očekuješ. Pogledaj samo koliko raznog oružja iz minulih sukobljavanja po Balkanu još cirkuliše naokolo. Jebote, pa onaj je na aerodromu maznuo 20 škorpiona kao da su to Adidas patike. Takođe, napisao sam u jednoj rečenici da je hemijsko oružje lako napraviti. I nije najvažniji fizički efekat, psihološki efekat je daleko delotvorniji. Eto, u Bosni, u Tuzli, su devedestih godina hlorom punjene plinske boce i bacane na vojsku Srpske.


Zato je link koji si postavio daleko zanimljiviji kao razotkrivanje nego kao čudo u rukama ISIS-a.

[Meho Krljic]

Pa, da, to sa navođenjem ISIS je više da se poplaši narod, ali interesantno je kako su ove stvari zapravo skrivane iako bi donekle poduprle ideju da je Irak napadnut zbog posedovanja oružja za masovno uništenje.

[scallop]

Ne razumeš ti to. Moja greška što sam mislio da možeš.

[Meho Krljic]

Dobro je priznavati svoje greške! 

[mac]

Internet je već pun reakcija da su ti otrovi ostali u skladištima još iz doba rata sa Iranom, zastarelo i mahom izlapelo, i da to nije ono što je vojska tražila.

[Meho Krljic]

Da, pa i nije. Mislim, tražili su nuklearno ili biološko oružje. Iz samog teksta koji sam zakačio se vidi da nisu čak ni bili pripremljeni za ovo što su našli.

[scallop]

Internet je već pun reakcija da su ti otrovi ostali u skladištima još iz doba rata sa Iranom, zastarelo i mahom izlapelo, i da to nije ono što je vojska tražila.

Mac, iperit (mustard gas) je tečnost i teško da može da "izlapi". Posebno je gadan kad je u korodiranoj košuljici, šta god pipneš može da ti otvori gadne rane za sledećih pola godine lečenja. Nervni bojni otrovi su poezija u odnosu na tu gadost.

[Meho Krljic]

Ne kažem da bih se rado družio sa nekim ko skuplja i samozadovoljava se na stripove u kojima je prikazivana zloupotreba dece, ali da li zbog toga baš treba da se ide u zatvor je i dalje otvoreno pitanje. Sem u Britaniji gde je odgovor na pitanje dobijen: treba.


UK convicts man over manga sex images of children

A 39-year-old UK man has been convicted of possessing illegal cartoon drawings of young girls exposing themselves in school uniforms and engaging in sex acts. The case is believed to be the UK's first prosecution of illegal manga and anime images.
Local media said that Robul Hoque was sentenced last week to nine months' imprisonment, though the sentence is suspended so long as the defendant does not break the law again.
Police seized Hoque's computer in 2012 and said they found nearly 400 such images on it, none of which depicted real people but were illegal nonetheless because of their similarity to child pornography. Hoque was initially charged with 20 counts of illegal possession but eventually pled guilty to just 10 counts.
Teesside Crown Court Judge Tony Briggs said the pictures were "repulsive."
"This is material that clearly society and the public can well do without. Its danger is that it obviously portrays sexual activity with children, and the more it's portrayed, the more the ill-disposed may think it's acceptable," the judge told the South Bank, Middlesbrough man.
Prosecutors said the defendant was "actively searching for this material on the Internet."
But the man's lawyer claimed that such cases could make inadvertent criminals of manga fans. "This case should serve as a warning to every manga and anime fan to be careful," said Richard Bennett. "It seems there are many thousands of people in this country, if they are less than careful, who may find themselves in that position, too."
While the conviction might be a first in the UK, the US had its first such case in 2009, a prosecution that was alarming to some comics fans.

Doduše, članak pominje i jedan američki slučaj, a ja se sećam i jednog slučaja iz Švedske od pre neku godinu kada je autoru stripa suđeno jer je nacrtao sliku koja je smatrana dečijom pornografijom (iako je na slici bila samo mlada devojka, obučena, u nečem što bi se moglo tumačiti kao sugestivna poza).

Sad opet, razumem da nije prijatno misliti kako ima ljudi koje uzbuđuje zloupotreba dece, ali opet - tih ljudi ima i nećemo ih prosto ukloniti time što ukidamo crteže koji njima mogu biti privlačni. S druge strane, debata da li dopuštanje distribucije ovakvih crteža ohrabruje zloupotrebu dece svakako treba da se vodi - ali da li pre ili posle zatvorskih presuda???

Pitanje je, naravno ovo: ako u zatvor stavljamo nekoga ko je posedovao crtež na kome je maloletno dete seksualno zloupotrebljeno (da tako nekako definišemo ovaj prestup), koja je razlika između toga i toga da u zatvor stavimo nekoga ko je posedovao crtež na kome je odrasli muškarac silovan, ubijen a onda isečen na komade i skuvan?

[scallop]

Imaš takav crteš? Da i tebe zatvorimo.

[Meho Krljic]

Naravno da imam, pisao sam i na forumu ovde o njemu.

[scallop]

Mislio sam da si pobornik slabijih, nezaštićenih i manjina, a ti samo ako neko drugi to nije.

[Meho Krljic]

Ja niti znam šta si ti sad rekao (da skačem u zaštitu manjina samo ako ih niko drugi ne štiti? [citation needed]) niti kako je ovo povezano sa temom rasprave (a koja je najšire rečeno - da li se zbog posedovanja crteža na kome je nešto najodvratnije što možemo da zamislimo ljudi valjaju slati u zatvor?). Može li mala pomoć???

[Albedo 0]

prije sto godina postojao je buljuk stvari čije je posjedovanje bilo ilegalno, izgleda da je samo ova vrsta ostala nezakonita. Djeca su osjetljiva dimenzija, tu je povučena linija. Pretpostavljam da je teško dokazati vezu između nasilnih filmova i pribjegavanja nasilju, ali u slučaju pedofila valjda je veza mnogo jača

pretpostavljam da Krljića čudi da sve ovo ne potpada pod umjetničku i slobodu mišljenja, ali Britanija je onomad zabranjivala i Kubrikovu Pomorandžu

sve u svemu, da li to znači da i posjedovanje Srpskog filma takođe može da te odvede u britanski zatvor?

[scallop]

Obično je iluzorno s tobom o bilo čemu raspravljati. Čovek je dobio uslovnu kaznu, tek toliko da se uzme u pamet, da pedofilija u bilo kojem obliku nije za simpatije. I šta ti tu ima da objašnjavaš poređenjem sa još gorim mentalnim defektom. Ili decu štitimo ili ih ne štitimo, pa ti odluči.

[mac]

Šta tačno znači "štiti decu"? Zar ne štitimo decu bolje ako ljudima sa specijalnim (pedofilskim) potrebama dozvolimo da sve potrebe zadovolje na takav način da nijedno dete nije umešano, nego ako im uskraćujemo tu mogućnost?

[scallop]

БЛЛЛЛ. Može, ali u zatvoru. Kad budete imali decu i unuke, javite se.

[mac]

Zar će deca i unuci da mi omoguće neki pristup koji je "bolji" od pragmatičnog?

[scallop]

Možda nećeš lupetati.

[Meho Krljic]

Ovde je više dilema - ako štitimo decu, da li štitimo i druge? Zato kažem, ako je posedovanje crteža na kome se vidi zloupotreba deteta prekršaj koji se kažnjava zatvorom - zašto to nije i posedovanje crteža na kome se vidi zlostavljanje punoletne žene, psa, punoletnog muškarca, osobe sa invaliditetom ili crtež na kome se vidi ubistvo deteta?

Mislim, jasno mi je da je osećaj u nama drugačiji. Ali pokušavam da utvrdim da li je osećaj dovoljan za drugačiji zakonski tretman.

[scallop]

Ajde prvo da rešimo dilemu da li štitimo decu.

[Meho Krljic]

Pa, štitimo. Mislim, tu nema dileme, zakoni su jasni u pogledu zaštite dece, do te mere da su negde i "preterani" (u smislu da recimo, dvoje maloletnika od po 17 godina u Americi legalno smeju da imaju snošaj, ali ako se pritom još i slikaju dok to rade, u prekršaju su). Dakle, kao društvo smo (manje-više globalno) složni da ih štitimo. Pitanje ovde je da li je ovo vid zaštite dece i ako jeste zašto se ne primenjuje na druge populacione grupe, kao i zašto se ne primenjuje na druge oblike prikazivanja dece (recimo posedovanje teksta o zlostavljanju deteta ne potpada pod kažnjiva dela po zakonu po kome je suđeno čoveku u ovom slučaju).

[scallop]

Sad ćemo da se migoljiomo do sudnjeg dana?

[Meho Krljic]

Gde da se migoljimo??? Ovo je zanimljivo pravno, antropološko i, šta ja znam, socijalno pitanje. Zakon te ne kažnjava ako sediš kod kuće i crtaš sliku na kojoj premlaćuješ svog komšiju, niti ako gledaš sliku na kojoj  te je neko drugi nacrtao kako premlaćuješ svog komšiju i uz tu sliku se samozadovoljavaš. Ali te kažnjava ako imaš crtež na kome je neko drugi nacrtao fiktivnog maloletnika u situaciji koju neko treći smatra zloupotrebljavajućom. Pitanje je zašto jedno nije a drugo jeste i kako da razlučimo je li i jedno i drugo korisno za društvo u celini.

[Anomander Rejk]

Meho takva pitanja se mogu ponavljati u nedogled. Negde se mora podvući crta. I zakonski. Tako npr. sticanje punoletstva, sa 18 godina, možemo pitati a zašto neko sa 17 g i 364 dana nema prava kao onaj sa 18, a u nekim slučajevima su ljudi zreliji iako imaju manje godina od drugih, ali prosto ako kreneš tako razvodnjavati ode u beskraj. Negde se podvlači crta i stavlja neka zakonska linija od koje se polazi, makar nekad bila i nerealna. Pravim analogiju na ovo o čemu ti govoriš, nešto se mora uzeti kao reper i od toga krenuti...a uvek se može pitati ,,zašto ovo može, a ovo ne može.''

[mac]

Onda da zabranimo Raju, Gaju, i Vlaju, jer su očigledno maloletni, a u stripovima su prikazani bez gaća.

[Meho Krljic]

a uvek se može pitati ,,zašto ovo može, a ovo ne može.''

Pa, to i pitamo. Možda dođemo do toga da i još nešto drugo možemo da učinimo da nekoga ili nešto zaštitimo itd.

[scallop]

Misliš one koji ubijaju, seku i kuvaju odrasle ljude?

[Meho Krljic]

Ne bre, nego one koji su u opasnosti da budu skuvani i pojedeni.