ZNAK SAGITE — više od fantastike — edicija, časopis, knjižara...

Quote from: mac on 26-02-2014, 16:09:21
Slaba je logika po kojoj neko ima istorijsko pravo na naku teritoriju. Onaj ko tu trenutno živi ima "pravo" da tu živi sve dok ga ne istera neko jači. A posle ima "pravo" i da se žali Ujedinjenim nacijama i međunarodnoj zajednici za to što je isteran.

Staljin jeste proterao ljude, i to je nepravda, ali Staljin ima obavezu da se brine o mnogim milionima, i za prosperitet tih mnogih miliona bilo je potrebno da izlaz na Crno more bude bezbedan, a ne da zavisi od malih miliona koji sebe ne vide u mnogim milionima.

Aha, Mac, ali ako je tako Kosovo je albansko zar ne?

Oni trenutno žive na Kosovu i imaju pravo da žive dok ih ne istera neko jači.
To proizilazi iz tvog posta.

Mislim, daj da se opredelimo jesmo li za istorijski princip ili za zakon jačeg.
Ako smo za istorijski - moralni princip Krimski Kanat je postojao od 1441. do 1783. kao deo Otomanskog carstva.

Tek 1783. osvaja ga Rusko carstvo, ali čak ni tad Tatari su u velikoj većini sve do same 1944. kad se Staljinu smučilo i kad je organizovo 16 kompozicija za ,,humano'' preseljenje.
Uzgred ako je Staljin ok tu, onda je ok i što je Abhaziju i Južnu Osetiju pripojio svojoj matičnoj republici Gruziji.

Grka više tamo nema da bi tražili zahtev (Inače Staljin je odatle terao uz Tatare i Grke i Jevreje),
dok Tatara ima 200 000.

- A ako nećemo istorijski princip već da uvažavamo silu i interese, ok onda.
Ja više volim Tursku i od Rusije i od Ukrajine, dakle navijaću za nju.
Čemu onda ikakvo pravdanje ikakvih postupaka.
Po Darvinu sve se vrsti oko zakona jačeg.

potpuno je nejasno da neko ko je LDP priča o turskom pravu na Krim...

Quote from: Anomander Rejk on 26-02-2014, 16:12:44
Kao što je predlagao Ruzvelt.

odakle ti to?

Quote from: Loni on 26-02-2014, 16:23:24
Aha, Mac, ali ako je tako Kosovo je albansko zar ne?

Jeste, ali je i naše. Priča s Kosovom (kao i sa bilo kojim drugim područjem) nije gotova samo zato što neko preko okeana tako kaže. Cilj Srbije i nije da povrati celo Kosovo, nego onaj deo gde se još uvek govori srpski jezik.

Edit: ako cilj trenutne vlade nije ovaj, onda treba da menjamo vladu.

ako je to cilj bilo koje spske vlade, ona je red poručiti im da poklanjaju svoje dvorište a ne tuđe

koliko znam, u Ustavu piše da su svi građani jednaki, a to ne samo da znači da stanovnici pašaluka nisu jednakiji od drugih, već i da su Albanci ravnopravni građani.

i to je jedina politika koja ima smisla, sve ostalo je prdež u čabar.

Ja više volim Tursku i od Rusije i od Ukrajine, dakle navijaću za nju.

A čime su zaslužili tu ljubav ? Zemlja koja je 500 godina unazadila i okupirala ove prostore. Jesi li upoznat sa ograničenjima interneta i mlaćenjem demonstranata u savremenoj Turskoj ? A sa ugnjetavanjem Kurda ?

Da ne zaboravimo i genocid nad Jermenima...

Прочитах један коментар негде ових дана па се сетих Лонија, апологете децеубица. Каже - сад је као '41-'42 кад су људи у окупираној Србији читали вести о томе како Немачка напредује на Источном фронту. Али онда је дошла '45, па су Срби читали о паду Берлина и стрељању домаћих издајника и сарадника окупатора.

Quote from: Anomander Rejk on 26-02-2014, 19:05:50
Ja više volim Tursku i od Rusije i od Ukrajine, dakle navijaću za nju.

A čime su zaslužili tu ljubav ? Zemlja koja je 500 godina unazadila i okupirala ove prostore. Jesi li upoznat sa ograničenjima interneta i mlaćenjem demonstranata u savremenoj Turskoj ? A sa ugnjetavanjem Kurda ?

stvarno ne znam kako Srbi mogu da ljetuju tamo!

Kakve to ima veze ? To je poslovan odnos koji nema veze sa ljubavlju. Ti si turista, za svoj novac dobijaš dobru uslugu-smeštaj, klopu, provod, lokalne ugostitelje i radnike koji će trčkarati oko tebe. Turčin ti se ne smeši zato što te voli, već zato što mu ostavljaš novac.  Kao što te uostalom ne voli ni Srbin ali će ti se smešiti kad mu ostavljaš novac)Ne moraš ,,voleti'' neku zemlju da bi u njoj se lepo proveo.
Ali Loni reče da voli Tursku, pa mi bilo zanimljivo zbog čega, jer se ona nikako ne uklapa u njegove anacionalne, antireligijske i liberalne vizije.

Турска је феноменална. Боравак тамо ме је одушевио.
Не знам додуше како се у Лонијеву некритичку љубав према тој земљи уклапају неки њихови закони. Нпр., како нам је испричао водич приликом излета у Ефес и Памукале, у Турској је законом забрањен сваки вид ниподаштавања турске заставе. Гажење заставе је кривично дјело. Чак и ако нацрташ заставу кредом на бетону и станеш на њу, то је кривично дјело. Не сјећам се које су казне за то, али волио бих да видим оног крелца што је изрежирао повраћање по српској застави да то исто понови и тамо, па да им прича како је то умјетност.
Не знам ни како се у Лонијеву љубав према Турској уклапа њихов став према гејству. Ево са Њикипедије:
"Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) persons in Turkey face legal challenges and discrimination not experienced by non-LGBT residents. Homosexual relations are legal in the Republic of Turkey since 1858, but the law does not include sexual orientation or gender identity in its civil rights laws and there is no legal recognition for same-sex couples currently."
Чини ми се такође да су Турци много слични Србима. Нпр. велике су љенчуге чак и кад је ријеч о туризму. Артемидин храм у Ефесу, једно од седам свјетских чуда, је у некој забаченој неуређеној мочваретини, не постоји као туристичка дестинација, нама га водич онако успут споменуо и показао кроз прозор буса кад смо ишли из Ефеса. Маузолеј у Халикарнасу такође није баш једноставан за проналажење. Сваки нормалан народ који има тако велико грчко благо на сваком ћошку би ставио путоказе: "На овој страни се налази једно од седам свјетских чуда!"
Иначе, један мањи дио Турака је руског поријекла, плавокоси су и уопште не личе на "праве" турке. Мислим да је лик који нас је возио на роњење од те сорте, са њим смо мало ћаскали о политици и он је био тотално против уласка у ЕУ, био је врло критичан према западним земљама и реко је "Не требају они нама, ми требамо њима."
Одлична је Турска.

Jeviga, trebalo je da otvorim poseban topik o bitkoinu na vreme. Al sad je kasno. Evo najnovijih uzbuđenja vezanih za najpopularniju kriptovalutu na svetu. Naime, katastrofa. Mt. Gox, najpoznatija bitcoin berza je zatvorena pre neki dan (pisale i novine o tome), a ispada da je neko odande ukrao ogromnu količinu bitcoina:


Apparent Theft at Mt. Gox Shakes Bitcoin World

Quote
The most prominent Bitcoin exchange appeared to be on the verge of collapse late Monday, raising questions about the future of a volatile marketplace.
On Monday night, a number of leading Bitcoin companies jointly announced that Mt. Gox, the largest exchange for most of Bitcoin's existence, was planning to file for bankruptcy after months of technological problems and what appeared to have been a major theft. A document circulating widely in the Bitcoin world said the company had lost 744,000 Bitcoins in a theft that had gone unnoticed for years. That would be about 6 percent of the 12.4 million Bitcoins in circulation.
While Mt. Gox did not respond to numerous requests for comments, and the companies issuing the statement scrambled to determine the exact situation at Mt. Gox, which is based in Japan, the news helped push the price of a single Bitcoin below $500 for the first time since November, when it began a spike that took it above $1,200.


But at the same time that the news about Mt. Gox was emerging, a New York firm announced plans to create an exchange that could draw the world's largest banks into the virtual currency market for the first time.


The new exchange is being put together by SecondMarket, which rose to fame a few years ago after creating a platform for buying and selling shares of companies like Twitter and Facebook before they went public.
Without the trouble at Mt. Gox, the SecondMarket plans would have been seen as a major boon for virtual currencies, providing a potential entry point into the Bitcoin market for large banks, which have so far avoided virtual currencies as their price has skyrocketed.
Barry Silbert, SecondMarket's chief executive, said that he had already talked with several banks and financial companies about joining the new exchange, along with financial regulators, and that he hoped to have it in operation this summer.
But plans for any new venture will be tested by the collapse of Mt. Gox, which could shake the faith of early Bitcoin adopters. Ryan Galt, a blogger who writes frequently about Bitcoin and was one of the first to circulate the news about Mt. Gox, wrote on Monday: "I do believe that this is one of the existential threats to Bitcoin that many have feared and have personally sold all of my Bitcoin holdings."
On Monday, Mt. Gox took down all of its previous posts on Twitter, one day after its chief executive, Mark Karpeles, resigned from the board of the Bitcoin Foundation, a nonprofit that advocates for virtual currencies.



A statement from the chief executives of Bitcoin companies like Coinbase, Circle, Blockchain.info and Payward, said that the "tragic violation of the trust of users of Mt. Gox was the result of one company's abhorrent actions and does not reflect the resilience or value of Bitcoin and the digital currency industry."
The events are in keeping with the stark ups and downs of Bitcoin's short existence.
Released in 2009 by an anonymous creator known as Satoshi Nakamoto, the Bitcoin program runs on the computers of anyone who joins in, and it is set to release only 21 million coins in regular increments. The coins can be moved between digital wallets using secret passwords.
While Bitcoin fans have said the technology could provide a revolutionary new way of moving money around the world, skeptics have viewed it variously as a Ponzi scheme or an investment susceptible to fraud and theft.
Many leading names in the Bitcoin community were still trying to determine the scope and potential consequences of the troubles at Mt. Gox. A document detailing the purported theft, labeled "Crisis Strategy Draft," appeared to come from Mt. Gox.
While officials at the Bitcoin Foundation could not verify the origins of the document, they were preparing for the closure of Mt. Gox.Continue reading the main story Patrick Murck, the foundation's general counsel, said that "this incident just demonstrates the need for initiatives by responsible individuals and responsible members of the Bitcoin community like what's being described" in SecondMarket's initiative.




Mt. Gox's difficulties this week are only the latest in a long line of problems at the Tokyo-based exchange. Created in 2010, Mt. Gox quickly became the most popular place to buy and sell Bitcoins. But the firm has suffered several intrusions and technological mishaps, which have led to steep declines in the currency's price. A few weeks ago the company stopped allowing its customers to withdraw Bitcoins after it said it had discovered a flaw in some of the basic Bitcoin computer code.
While other exchanges were briefly hit by problems, they came back online. Mt. Gox never opened up again, prompting speculation about its future.
Until now, the major Bitcoin exchanges have all allowed anyone from the public to buy and sell virtual currency. SecondMarket's plan is to create a platform more like the New York Stock Exchange, where only large institutions can join and trade.
Mr. Silbert says he will only open the exchange once they have several regulated financial institutions signed on as members. His hope, he says, is to give them partial ownership so that they have an incentive to trade there.
For much of Bitcoin's life, banks have viewed the virtual currency with either derision or dismissiveness.
Recently, though, a number of banks have released research reports that have been less negative. A December report from Bank of America said that virtual currencies could become an important new part of the payment system, allowing money to move more cheaply than it does with credit cards and money transmitters like Western Union.
The statement from the Bitcoin companies on Monday night, which was not signed by Mr. Silbert, said that "in order to re-establish the trust squandered by the failings of Mt. Gox, responsible Bitcoin exchanges are working together and are committed to the future of Bitcoin and the security of all customer funds."

Bitcoin's Mt. Gox Goes Offline, Loses $409M -- Recovery Steps and Taking Your Tax Losses

QuoteMt. Gox's recent troubles are circulating like wildfire.  Its repercussions are being felt throughout the world.  Mt. Gox was the most public and well-known brand that represented Bitcoin's exchange market.  The company's shutdown is rumored to be caused by a "hack" or "security breach" that resulted in a loss up to 744,000 BTC or $409,200,000. (Based on the approximate value just hours ago from Coindesk.com)  This is truly an unfortunate event that has caused the international community to shake its trust in Bitcoin as evidenced by the massive price drop.  This is par for the course, when a pillar in the community falls in such a funeral pyre.  The best parallel would be the Bear Stearns' failure during the 2008 global financial crisis.  Hopefully, Bitcoin won't follow in the financial system's footsteps post-Bear Stearns.
This Not The First Time
Mt. Gox was suspected to be hacked before to the tune of 400,000 Bitcoins (Today worth $220,000,000) in 2011. At the time of the incident the bitcoins were only worth $9 million, Hackers attempted to sell $9 million worth of bitcoins simultaneous on the Mt. Gox network and it caused the market price crashing to zero, before Mark Karpeles, CEO of Mt. Gox, shutdown the exchange.  Mt. Gox was able to recover from this by publicly apologizing and by reimbursing the lost funds.  This was an amount that the company was able to reimburse, but the most recent breach eclipses the 2011 incident and the company is unable to make the same promise again.

Mt. Gox is not the only company to face these problems.  Companies such as MyBitcion lost 154,406 Bitcoins (Today worth $84,923,300) in an attack in 2011 and Bitcoinica lost 43,554 (Today worth $23,954,700) in an attack in 2012.  There are a multitude of these incidents, so it is unfair to lay the blame solely on Mt.Gox.  Financial institutions are targets that constantly under attack by unscrupulous individuals.  It is a difficult position for any person or company to withstand.




Focusing On Next Steps
Insurance
Over one million people were Mt. Gox customers and they need to know what their immediate options are to deal with their financial losses.  First, it's important to understand that Mt. Gox is not a bank and it does not protect its users with a system similar to the FDIC or Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.  This means that there isn't a neutral third-party protecting the money you held at Mt. Gox.  The FDIC provides insurance up to $250,000  on deposits in bank accounts to help assure us that our money won't evaporate, if the bank shuts down like Mt. Gox.
Mt. Gox. could have provided the same service by purchasing a separate insurance policy on their BTC deposits.  The insurance would've been on behalf of the one million users that have lost $409.2 million overnight.  Unfortunately, Mt. Gox does not provide insurance or any assurances for a user's account.  Thus, we're left in the wind – cold and unprotected.
Lawsuit
Can we sue or file a claim against Mt. Gox?  Suing Mt. Gox would require an international lawsuit filed under Japanese law, where the company is headquartered and registered by the Tokyo Chamber of Commerce.  Realistically, it won't be worth our time or money to go after the company.  It's unlikely that there will be enough assets held within the company to pay off any substantial or meaningful portion of the lost bitcoins.  The legal fees would probably balloon into the millions and swallow what's left of the fallen company.
What about the officers like Mark Karpeles, CEO?  It would really depend on how Japanese laws would handle the situation.  In the United States, we wouldn't be able to pierce the corporate veil unless we were able to show gross negligence or some sign of personal fault.  Assuming we were able to obtain a judgment against officers like Mark Karpeles, it is still unlikely that we'd be able to reclaim any amount even close to the $409.2 million.
What Now? Taking Your Losses And Tax Benefits
The single silver lining here is that Americans that fell in this disaster will at least be able to use their losses to help lower their tax burdens.  United States tax law allows capital gain losses to be rolled forward without a statute of limitation.  Thus, your Bitcoin losses will be deductible forever until you've used them all.  This means that the $409.2 million is worth a potential $122.8 million in tax refunds.
We've already discussed in previous articles that bitcoins are classified as assets used as an investment by most of the Bitcoin community. Thus, taking your capital gain losses is just part of that process.  You're permitted to take up to $3,000 in capital losses per year to deduct against your personal income "above the line," until you've exhausted all of your capital losses.  (This is a very good thing!)  I can't say that this will give much solace to people that lost their accounts at Mt. Gox or the bitcoin community, but I hope that this gives them some measure of good news.
Conclusion
Mt. Gox's failure is not the end of Bitcoin.  It is a single company failing in a large ecosystem.  The other major pillars in the community such as Coinbase, Kraken, Bitstamp, BTC China, Blockchain.info and Circle have issued public statements reiterating my thoughts.  Bitcoin has taken a stumble, but it is up to the community to determine whether this is a scrape they can recover from.  But, it's important to realize that all wounds heal given enough time.


Mt. Gox has released an official statement on their website.  They state that "a decision was taken to close all transactions for the time being in order to protect the site and our users. We will be closely monitoring the situation and will react accordingly."  Their future actions are unclear and we're looking forward to seeing how they might react to assuage the worries that users have.
 

Bitcoin Exchange Mt. Gox Goes Offline Amid Allegations of $350 Million Hack

Quote
Mt. Gox, once the world's largest bitcoin exchange, has gone offline, apparently after losing hundreds of millions of dollars due to a years-long hacking effort that went unnoticed by the company.
The hacking attack is detailed in a leaked "crisis strategy draft" plan, apparently created by Gox and published Monday by Ryan Selkis, a bitcoin entrepreneur and blogger (see below). According to the document, the exchange is insolvent after losing 744,408 bitcoins — worth about $350 million at Monday's trading prices. The plan paints a bleak picture of the exchange's finances and outlines an arbitrage scheme to restore the exchange to solvency. "The reality is that Mt. Gox can go bankrupt at any moment, and certainly deserves to as a company," the document states.
WIRED couldn't confirm the authenticity of the document. Reached Monday night, a Gox representative declined to comment on the document and referred us to the company's webpage, before abruptly hanging up. But the website went offline a few hours after the company suspended trading on its exchange, and if the document is indeed authentic, the situation it described could reverberate across the world of bitcoin and possibly hamper the future of the digital currency.
Bitcoin insiders had been bracing for the worst from Mt. Gox for weeks, but the magnitude of the apparent theft — which would be the largest bitcoin heist ever —  and the company's alleged plan to replenish its stock of bitcoins took even seasoned bitcoiners by surprise. "Gox is the worst-run business in the history of the world," said Roger Ver, in an instant message interview. Ver is a bitcoin advocate who lives across the street from Mt. Gox's Tokyo offices and tried to help out the troubled exchange the last time it was hacked, back in 2011.



A coalition of bitcoin businesses — including bitcoin wallet-makers Coinbase and Blockchain — quickly put out a statement as news of the hack spread. "This tragic violation of the trust of users of Mt. Gox was the result of one company's abhorrent actions and does not reflect the resilience or value of bitcoin and the digital currency industry," they said. "There are hundreds of trustworthy and responsible companies involved in bitcoin."
As WIRED reported earlier, Gox has been in trouble since U.S. authorities seized $5 million of the company's U.S. assets last year. Gox had been operating in the U.S. without the proper money transmission permits. Since that seizure, customers had reported months-long delays in receiving cash for their bitcoins, and earlier this month, Gox suspended all withdrawals, blaming a bug in its bitcoin wallet software.
Now, according to the alleged leaked document, it looks like hackers had been exploiting that bug for two years, and even removing bitcoins from supposedly secure "cold" wallets that the company had stored offline. Typically, cold wallets are disconnected from the internet and cannot be emptied by online attackers. However, the "cold storage has been wiped out due to a leak in the hot wallet," the document states.
Gox's collapse is another black eye to a virtual currency that's been struggling to go legit. Last month, Charlie Shrem, the CEO of U.S. bitcoin exchanger Bitinstant, was arrested on money laundering charges. Both Shrem and Gox CEO Mark Karpeles had been board members with the Bitcoin Foundation, the digital currency's lobbying and software development group. Both have now stepped down. But according to the alleged Mt. Gox document, the bitcoin world faces even bigger problems that the loss of these two men. "This could be the end of bitcoin," the document reads, "at least for most of the public."

A ima i ovaj insajderski dokument:


MtGox Situation: Crisis Strategy Draft

Шта је битцоин?

Quote from: Anomander Rejk on 27-02-2014, 00:02:15
Ne moraš ,,voleti'' neku zemlju da bi u njoj se lepo proveo.

da je to tako lonistavno i Ameri ne bi morali da vole Kubu, al vidiš da je ljubav sastavni dio turističke ponude!

Quote from: Trokrilni on 26-02-2014, 22:42:52

Quote from: Anomander Rejk on 26-02-2014, 19:05:50
Ja više volim Tursku i od Rusije i od Ukrajine, dakle navijaću za nju.

A čime su zaslužili tu ljubav ? Zemlja koja je 500 godina unazadila i okupirala ove prostore. Jesi li upoznat sa ograničenjima interneta i mlaćenjem demonstranata u savremenoj Turskoj ? A sa ugnjetavanjem Kurda ?

stvarno ne znam kako Srbi mogu da ljetuju tamo!

Turska, zakon!! Minimum pet puta sam tamo letovala.
Nedavno sam u jednoj kafani u Beogradu srela Hilmija i Deniza koji su dosli na svadbu kod nekog srpskog vodica.
I kad mi je Hilmi prisaao i rekao "Biljana dzanum!" ostala sam bez teksta, da se uopste seca kako se zovem a bila sam im u hotelu samo jedno leto. Pritom ta  dva Turcina u toj istoj kafani pevaju sve u 16  Miroslava lica i  Ljubio sam u Sapcu kraj Save. Turci su HIT!!
Grcka ima daleko lepse more, ali sto se tice usluge Turci su neprikosnoveni. Kakvi mi, i nase gostoprimstvo...
Harvester je  pretpostavljam bio Kusadasi Marmaris Bodrum - taj potez kad vec pominje Efes i Pamukale. Mada mi je genijalan i onaj njihov nacionalni park u Kusadasiju ,gde se recimo po plazi divlje svinje opusteno setkaju jer je u pozadini suma, tako je bar na plazi broj tri, do cetvrte nisu ni hteli, ni smeli da nas voze. Ludilo.

A u medjuvremenu:
http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2014&mm=02&dd=27&nav_category=78&nav_id=817198


SVET    | ČETVRTAK 27.02.2014 | 07:56 -> 09:26
Krim: Zauzeta zgrada parlamenta

IZVOR: B92, BETA, TANJUG
Kijev -- Naoružani ljudi zauzeli zgradu vlade i parlamenta na poluostrvu Krim i istakli rusku zastavu. Policija opkolila ceo kvart.

A ovo je već dirljivo:
http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2014&mm=02&dd=27&nav_category=78&nav_id=817198

"...Tatari, koji su turkijski narod, bili su žrtve sovjetskog lidera Josifa Staljina u Drugom svtskom ratu i 1944. godine su masovno deportovani u sovjetsku centralnu Aziju zbog sumnje da sarađuju sa nacističkom Nemačkom. "

Ako nekog zanima tematika, nek zaviri makar na Internet: Koliko je Tatara sarađivalo s Nemcima za vreme rata, šta su radili itd... Elem, i njih i Povolške Nemce snašlo je... zasluženo.

Loni, objasni Agoti da u Turskoj krše ljudska prava, i da kvalitet morske vode zbog toga ispašta!

Dok su bili Krimski kanat izgleda da je Tatarima biznis bio prodaja slovenskog roblja po islamskim zemljama. Da prikupe resurse bavili su se "stepskom žetvom". Računica je na oko tri miliona komada prodatih.

očekujem da će ovo ruje riješiti u nekoliko dana kao s gruzijom

ne mogu ovo riješiti

lijepo je gore na jednom od linkova primjećeno da Rusija ne može da ugrožava teritorijalni integritet nijedne države sada kada želi da formira Evroazijsku uniju, jer ima takve iste probleme i sa Kazahstanom i drugim budućim članicama

sama sebi bi presjekla granu na kojoj stoji

Rusi se neće petljati u ukrajinske poslove, i najviše im odgovara cjelovita Ukrajina

Zapamti šta si napisao.

Hoću, a i podsjetiću da je među svim pričama Putin rekao to isto: cjelovita Ukrajina. To su njegove riječi.

to što će se Ukrajina raspasti nekad u budućnosti je druga priča

Zgodno je da ako si u pravu da se zna da si bio u pravu, a ako nisi da nisi. Ovo "jednom u budućnosti" je pomalo manipulacija. Jednom u budućnosti Ukrajina sigurno neće biti Ukrajina. To je loš projekt.

pa nije to baš isto

to što će se Ukrajina raspasti iznutra jer je loš projekat je jedna stvar

a rusko ugrožavanje ukrajinskog teritorijalnog integriteta je druga stvar

Black swan je rekao da će Ruje ovo riješiti kao i s Gruzijom, a ja tvrdim da invazije ne može biti, sem ako su Rusi poludili, ili mi ne znamo nešto što oni znaju

,,a ja tvrdim da invazije ne može biti, sem ako su Rusi poludili, ili mi ne znamo nešto što oni znaju''
Sigurno da ne znamo nešto što oni znaju. Ne misliš valjda da mi, forumski diskutanti. znamo pravu istinu i mogući razvoj događaja u budućnosti, u stranoj državi ?

To je uobičajeni Batin diskurs. Posle može da kaže da je rekao da se ne može znati.

Одраће их Руси и нико их не може у томе спречити. Није искључено да су у позадини свих тих немира баш они, јер су им били потребни да би ушли са војском у Украјину, како би заштитили своје сународнике, присвојили територије са већинским руским становништвом, али и мало вратили "мило за драго" за WW2.

Mnooogo dirljivih stvari danas:

http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2014&mm=02&dd=27&nav_category=78&nav_id=817412

Svet | četvrtak 27.02.2014 | 15:03

  SAD Rusiji: Pazite šta radite
Izvor: B92  Brisel -- Sekretar odbrane SAD Čak Hejgel poručio je Rusiji da "ne vuče nikakve poteze u Ukrajini koji bi mogli biti pogrešno protumačeni", javlja AP.   

Sasvim OK. Oni su već razmotrili da im zajmnu jednu milijardicu od onih 35 koje su Ukrajini potrebne da prežive.

Quote from: Anomander Rejk on 27-02-2014, 16:08:37
,,a ja tvrdim da invazije ne može biti, sem ako su Rusi poludili, ili mi ne znamo nešto što oni znaju''
Sigurno da ne znamo nešto što oni znaju. Ne misliš valjda da mi, forumski diskutanti. znamo pravu istinu i mogući razvoj događaja u budućnosti, u stranoj državi ?

ako znaš kako se ponaša virus gripa onda znaš i šta će biti najvjerovatnije političke posljedice ovoga ili onoga


pričali ste do prije 5 dana da će Januković sve ovo da zataška, pa je sad nestao s lica Zemlje


pola Srbije navijalo za Janukoviča otkad su počele demonstracije, i šta sad, mrmot zamotao čokoladu u foliju


šta sam mislio pod tim da ''ne znamo nešto što oni znaju'', mislim prije svega na krupne stvari

možemo mi da se zajebavamo, ali nije isto kada neku tamo patuljastu Gruziju diraš, ili kad napadneš državu sa 45 miliona stanovnika. Nije to pitanje da li ta država može da se odbrani, već gdje će poraženi da odu. Ako Rusija pobjedi otići će na Zapad

Njemačkoj prvoj ne odgovara taj milionski izbjeglički talas, a Rusiji drugoj ne odgovara da se zamjera Njemačkoj

jeste vi čitavi, Srbija nije mogla da se izbori sa izbjeglicama koje čine 5 POSTO stanovništva u Srbiji, a mislite da će EU sa 10% moći, malo sutra. Srbi sa Srbima nisu mogli da se dogovore, a hoće NJemci sa Ukrajincima.

Ponoviću još jednom: Putin je lud ako to uradi, jer Ukrajinu samu po sebi ne može izolovano da riješi, a da ne pokrene sranje kontinentalnih razmjera

pola Srbije navijalo za Janukoviča otkad su počele demonstracije, i šta sad, mrmot zamotao čokoladu u foliju

Niko ovde nije navijao za Janukoviča, koga briga za nekog vladara/političara. Navija se protiv NATO u Ukrajini, i protiv organizovanog naci puča. A sve zavisi kako gledaš na stvari. I ja se sećam svršavanja po domaćim forumima kad su oterali Janukovača i nacisti marširali gradovima Ukrajine, kojekakvih otporaša, ljubitelja NVO, ,,građana'' i sličnih. Pa evo ih zadnja dva dana kukaju i cvile po forumima o ruskom agresoru i separatizmu.

I ne znam što si zapeo za intervenciju. Ne verujem da iko ovde misli da će Rusi frontalno nagrnuti na Ukrajinu ili okupirati Kijev ? Ali svakako će štititi i Krim i svoje sunarodnike. Sila su i može im se, nisu mala Srbija koja mora trpiti 17.mart i divljanja Albanaca. Ne misliš valjda da će Rusi mirno gledati da im neki ukrajinski naciji ubijaju ljude, ukidaju jezik i slično ?

o čemu pričaš bre čovječe, pa nije Timošenkova luda da to dozvoli nekakvim nacistima, jel ti ozbiljno misliš da Rusima smeta Timošenkova?

valjda znaš zbog čega je robijala

U ratu u Persijskom zalivu SAD preko "koalicije voljnih" napadaju Irak, a ceh je platila Nemačka. Em su platili ratne operacije, em su istisnuti sa Bliskog istoka. Dakle, nekad se rat započinje protiv jednog da bi se šteta nanela drugom.

Ni Rusija ni Nemačka nemaju interes da se ovo u Ukrajini nastavi, a kamoli da eskalira. Ali, imaju SAD. Dva najbrojnija slovenska naroda bi zaratila, a Nemačka i EU bili ekonomski opterećeni.

Zato iz SAD stižu ove poruke njihove tobožnje zabrinutosti i treba ih čitati u obrnutom ključu. Uradiće sve da podstaknu nesreću.

sve si rekao sem: ako su Rusija i Njemačka zajedno može SAD da ga duva

To je tačno Trokrilni.
Da su Rusija i Nemačka zajedno, SAD bi mogla da duva (Osim u sličaju da se povežu sa Južnom Amerikom).

Ima verzija budućnosti koje govore da će EU sa Rusijom biti u vrlo dobrim odnosima, dok će se Severna i Južna Amerika ujednačiti u interesima.
To bi i bilo prirodnije, a ne ovako... Unakrsnije.

Ipak, za sad to nije.

Vi morate razumeti i poziciju Berlina, Pariza, Rima, Madrida i Varšave (London ne računam. Oni su u Komenveltu, imaju Australiju, skoro celu Kanadu i još mnogo šta u tešnjem savezu pa im do EU i nije).
Tim i još manjim evropskim zemljama nije u interesu da na kontinentu, umesto ravnoteže postoji jedna tako velika i dominanta zemlja kao što je Rusija.

Pa to je sasvim prirodno?

Ravnoteža je kad nema svu evropsku naftu Rusija već i da Danska sa Grenlandom uzme deo naftonosnogg Arktika, pa Norveška, pa Škotska.

Nije mi jasno zašto bi iko iz Srbije, zemlja koja će biti u EU navijao protiv svoje članice federacije Danske, a za Rusiju?
Nije mi jasno čemu to navijanje da sad Rusija uzme još neku teritoriju?
Što? Je l mala? Je l siromašna resursima?

Nemci, Francuzi, Poljaci, Italijani i ostali imaju legitimno pravo da navijaju da se moć Rusije ograniči, a ne ko u 20. veku da drže celu istočnu Evropu pod svoje.

Navijanje protiv nje je je sasvim ok i legitimno. Samo je stvar principa da se igra fer.
Američki kontinent (zajedno) ima veću ravnotežu nego Evroazija.
Tamo su 2 zemlje podjednako velike (SAD i Brazil),
7 su srednje veličine, ali takve da u spoju njih 3 mogu da pariraju SAD i Brazilu. To su: Meksiko, Kolumbija, Peru, Venecuela, Bolivija, Argentina i Kanada).
Ostale male, mogu da biraju.

U Evroaziji male evropske zemlje moraju da se ujedinjuju da bi se spasle apsolutne ruske dominacije. To je sasvim očekivano kad se pogleda karta.

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/planeta.299.html:480227-U-maju-referendum-na-Krimu-Janukovic-u-Rusiji

U maju referendum na Krimu, Janukovič u Rusiji
Agencije / Novosti online | 27. februar 2014. 09:24 > 18:10 |

Poslanici regionalne skupštine Autonomne Republike Krim izglasali su danas da 25. maja bude održan referendum o regionalnom statusu Krima. Janukovič se nalazi u sanatorijumu kod Moskve, Rusija garantuje bezbednost...

Evo još malo snimaka prodemokratski, evropski nastrojenih snaga :
Музичко розмовляє з прокурором

http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2014&mm=03&dd=01&nav_category=78&nav_id=818227

Kuva se opasno.
http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2014&mm=03&dd=01&nav_category=78&nav_id=818181

http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2014&mm=03&dd=01&nav_category=78&nav_id=818272

Читао сам неку анализу ових догађаја где је главна поента у томе да је Русија разобличила Запад као агресиван и лицемеран. Не верујем у то, штавише чини се као наивна идеја да је у модерној политици битно играти питањима као што... бем ли га... морал или нешто томе слично.

Лично не могу да се отмем утиску да још од Грузије Запад покушава да испровоцира озбиљну руску војну интервенцију на терену који није нужно "њихов" (дакле штета им је невелика) не би ли на делу видео војне доктрине, стратегије, и томе слично. Јер руку на срце, интервенција у Грузији показала је извесне мањкавости које екстремни русофили могу само да покушају да назову неком врстом мимикријое. Борис Соколов је наводно избачен са Универзитета аргументованом тврдњом да је рат у Грузији заправо био неуспех руске војске.

Moguće i to, ne bi bio prvi put da im drugi narodi posluže kao zamorčići.

Vi se zajebavate ali Rusi uzeli Krim:

Russian troops take over Ukraine's Crimea region

Quote
KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Russian troops took over Crimea as the parliament in Moscow gave President Vladimir Putin a green light Saturday to use the military to protect Russian interests in Ukraine. The newly installed government in Kiev was powerless to react to the action by Russian troops based in the strategic region and more flown in, aided by pro-Russian Ukrainian groups.

Putin sought and quickly got his parliament's approval to use its military to protect Russia's interests across Ukraine. But while sometimes-violent pro-Russian protests broke out Saturday in a number of Russian-speaking regions of eastern Ukraine, Moscow's immediate focus appeared to be Crimea.
Tensions increased when Ukraine's acting president, Oleksandr Turchynov, made a late night announcement that he had ordered the country's armed forces to be at full readiness because of the threat of "potential aggression."
Speaking live on Ukrainian TV, Turchynov he had also ordered stepped up security at nuclear power plants, airports and other strategic infrastructure.
Ignoring President Barack Obama's warning Friday that "there will be costs" if Russia intervenes militarily, Putin sharply raised the stakes in the conflict over Ukraine's future evoking memories of Cold War brinkmanship.
After Russia's parliament approved Putin's motion, U.S. officials held a high-level meeting at the White House to review Russia's military moves in Ukraine. The defense secretary, CIA director and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff were among those in attendance. The U.N. Security Council held a closed-door meeting for the second consecutive day to discuss the current situation in Ukraine.


"Russia and the West find themselves on the brink of a confrontation far worse than in 2008 over Georgia," Dmitri Trenin, the director of Carnegie Moscow Center, said in a commentary posted on its website. In Georgia, the Russian troops quickly routed the Georgian military after they tried to regain control over the separatist province of South Ossetia that has close ties with Moscow.
The latest moves followed days of scripted, bloodless turmoil on the peninsula, the scene of centuries of wars and seen by Moscow as a crown jewel of the Russian and Soviet empires. What began Thursday with the early-morning takeover of the regional parliament building by mysterious troops continued Saturday afternoon as dozens of those soldiers — almost certainly Russian — moved into the streets around the parliamentary complex and seized control of regional airports, amid street protests by pro-Russian Crimeans calling for Moscow's protection from the new government in Kiev.
That government came to power last week in the wake of months of pro-democracy protests against the now-fugitive president, Viktor Yanukovych, and his decision to turn Ukraine toward Russia, its longtime patron, instead of the European Union. Despite the calls for Moscow's help, there has been no sign of ethnic Russians facing attacks in Crimea or elsewhere in Ukraine.
Obama on Friday called on Russia to respect the independence and territory of Ukraine and not try to take advantage of its neighbor's political upheaval.
He said such action by Russia would represent a "profound interference" in matters he said should be decided by the Ukrainian people. He has not said, however, how the U.S. could pressure Moscow to step back from its intervention.


The Russian parliament urged that Moscow recall its ambassador in Washington in response to Obama's speech.
On Friday, Ukraine accused Russia of a "military invasion and occupation" in the Crimea, where Russia's Black Sea fleet is based. Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk called on Moscow "to recall their forces, and to return them to their stations," according to the Interfax news agency. "Russian partners, stop provoking civil and military resistance in Ukraine."
Ukraine's population of 46 million is divided in loyalties between Russia and Europe, with much of western Ukraine advocating closer ties with the European Union while eastern and southern regions look to Russia for support. Crimea, a semi-autonomous region that Russia gave to Ukraine in the 1950s, is mainly Russian-speaking.
In his address to parliament, Putin said the "extraordinary situation in Ukraine" was putting at risk the lives of Russian citizens and military personnel stationed at the Crimean naval base that Moscow has maintained since the Soviet collapse.
Despite Putin's sharp move, there were possible signs Saturday that the Russian leader could soften his approach. Former Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who was freed a week ago after more than 2 ½ years in prison, was reported to be heading to Moscow for a meeting with Putin on Monday. Putin has had good ties with Tymoshenko in the past, and he may look to her for a possible compromise.


In a statement posted on her party's web site, Tymoshenko urged the U.N. Security Council to meet in Kiev and asked the EU leaders to convene a meeting in Crimea. She urged the West to help protect Ukraine's territorial integrity, asked Ukrainians to remain calm and voiced hope that diplomacy will succeed.
In a note of restraint, Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin said the motion doesn't mean the president would immediately send additional troops to Ukraine. "There is no talk about it yet," he said.
Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, also said in televised remarks that while the president "got the entire arsenal of means necessary for settling this situation," he hadn't yet decided whether to use the Russian military in Ukraine or recall the ambassador from Washington as lawmakers suggested.
Putin's motion loosely refers to the "territory of Ukraine" rather than specifically to Crimea, raising the possibility that Moscow could use military force in other Russian-speaking areas in eastern and southern Ukraine, where many detest the new authorities in Kiev.
Pro-Russian protests were reported Saturday in the eastern cities of Kharkiv, Donetsk and Luhansk and the southern port of Odessa. In Kharkiv, 97 people were injured in clashes between pro-Russia demonstrators who flushed supporters of the new Ukrainian government out of the regional government building and hoisted the Russian flag on top of it, according to the Interfax news agency.


Trenin, of Moscow's Carnegie office, said that Putin could be seeking to "include a Crimea within the Russian Federation and eastern and southern regions of Ukraine forming a separate entity integrated with Russia economically and aligned with it politically."
"It is not clear at this point whether Kiev will be left to build a rump Ukraine with the western regions or whether it will be swayed to join the eastern regions," he wrote.
In Crimea, the new pro-Russian prime minister — who came to power after the gunmen swept into parliament on Thursday — claimed control of the military and police and asked Putin for help in keeping peace. There was no visible presence of Ukrainian troops Saturday.
The deputy premier in the Crimean government told Russian news agency RIA Novsti that Ukrainian troops were disarmed and others joined the Crimean people to help patrol the territory. The report couldn't immediately be confirmed.
Crimean Tatars, the historic hosts of the land who make up 12 percent of the island's population and stand strongly for Crimea remaining part of Ukraine, didn't put any visible resistance Saturday.


"The last two or three days have turned around the life of all the people in Crimea," said Refat Chubarov, a Crimean Tatar leader. "They've taken over military bases and civil institutions. That's why Crimean society is filled with fear. People are afraid of everyone and everything."
Crimea only became part of Ukraine in 1954 when Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev transferred jurisdiction from Russia, a move that was a mere formality when both Ukraine and Russia were part of the Soviet Union. The Soviet breakup in 1991 meant Crimea landed in an independent Ukraine.
Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt summed the situation up simply: "What's happening in Crimea is a Russian takeover. There is no doubt about that," he told Swedish Radio. "Russian military forces are involved and there has been a local takeover of power."
Russia put pressure on Ukraine from another direction when a spokesman for state gas company Gazprom said that Ukraine owed $1.59 billion in overdue bills for imported gas. Sergei Kuprianov said in a statement carried by Russian news wires that the gas arrears would endanger a recent discount granted by Russia.
The Russian payment demand and loss of the discount would accelerate Ukraine's financial crisis. The country is almost broke and seeking emergency credit from the International Monetary Fund.


The tensions barely touched everyday life in Simferopol, the regional capital of Crimea, or anywhere on the peninsula. Children played on swings a few blocks from the parliament building, and most of the city's stores were open. Couples walked hand-in-hand through parks. Crimea's airports — civilian and military — were closed to air traffic, but trains and cars were moving to and from the Ukrainian mainland.
"Things are normal," said Olga Saldovskaia, who was walking through town with her son and grandson. While she doesn't like having gunmen in the streets, like many people in this overwhelmingly ethnic Russian city, she also found their presence reassuring.
"If anyone tries to hurt the people here, they will protect us," said Saldovskaia. She said she sympathized with the pro-democracy protesters in Kiev, but also worries that turmoil in the capital could lead to violence against ethnic Russians. She added, though, that she definitely doesn't want Crimea to become part of Russia.
"Russia is not just all flowers and candy," she said.
Moscow has remained silent on claims that Russian troops are already in control of much of the peninsula, saying any troop movements are within agreed-upon rules governing the semi-autonomous Ukrainian region.
Meanwhile, flights remained halted at Simferopol's airport. Dozens of armed men in military uniforms without markings patrolled the area. They didn't stop or search people leaving or entering the airport, and refused to talk to journalists.
AP journalists crossing into Crimea from mainland Ukraine were briefly stopped at a checkpoint manned by troops in unmarked camouflage uniforms as well officers in uniforms of the Berkut, the feared riot police that cracked down on anti-Yanukovych protesters before he fled the capital a week ago.
___
Vladimir Isachenkov reported from Moscow. AP reporters Karl Ritter and David McHugh in Kiev, and Julia Subbotovska in Simferopol, contributed to this report.

Крајње је време да обновим тај руски, све одлажем из лењости.

Америчка реакција на ово блатантно кршење суверенитета и територијалног интегритета Украјине била је језива. Рекли су "Руси, то што радите није лијепо и ми ћемо озбиљно размислити да ли ћемо и даље да се играмо с вама."

I Kurc je uznemiren...
http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2014&mm=03&dd=02&nav_category=78&nav_id=818463
Šalu na stranu, ovo ne miriše na dobro. Daj bože da se smiri, da ne bi imali kakve jezive podudarnosti 1914-2014a...

A u Belorusiji su izgleda izvukli pouke iz skorašnjih događaja...
http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Svet/446521/Ekstremne-pripreme-beloruske-vojske-i-policije

http://jackmatlock.com/2014/03/ukraine-the-price-of-internal-division/

instant kafa pred spavanje


http://analitika.in.rs/vladimir-petkovic-sve-sto-treba-da-znate-o-ukrajini/

18.00 - Само дан пошто је ступио на дужност, командант украјинске морнарице Денис Березовски ставио се у службу проруских власти на Криму, преноси британски Гардијан.

19.30 - Власти у Кијеву саопштиле да је адмирал Березовски разрешен дужности и да ће се суочити са оптужбама за издају, преноси Гардијан.